h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Munchers, you said "only certain offspring will survive, and that is evolution"

That's exactly my point. For a long time, whether offspring survive or not hasn't been according to the "survival of the fittest". All healthy offspring survive, whether they are destined to have wisdom teeth or not. Thus, evolution hasn't been happening. There has been no culling of humans with inferior characteristics and no extra survival of humans with superior characteristics. Thus, no characteristics have been selected for the species.

Your argument is basically that evolution is still possible. I don't disagree with that. My point was that it hasn't been happening and isn't likely to happen (except possibly through direct manipulation, but it would be difficult to have such manipulations propagate through the species).

I agree with Munckin about tanning and fatness if only because I absolutely refuse to believe that being thin is in any way something to be proud of

I differ. I believe that a lot of these cosmetic genetics will become standard, as standard as, oh, circumcision currently is in the US.

I do however believe that certain things will be costly, as they are in the movie. Want a kid with an astronomical IQ? Pay an astronomical price-esque situation.

Mind you, if you are some what overweight, a tan can be flattering

As you all know, Dad's cancer on his bonce was due to sun damage, so I know I should take great care in the sun. Especially after three years in the Tropics when I was child, shedding layers of skin regularly, I am probably at great risk of developing a nasty mole or growth later on. But somehow the lure of the sun is too great and I nip out for a quick 30 minute toast every so often. It is complelety irrestistable.

So I wouldn't mind being genetically engineered to be able to tan without complications later. But I could choose to do that, is it right to choose for unborn children? If I knew I was carrying a child that a genetically inherited disease then I suspect I would do everything I could to prevent them getting it. But would they resent the fiddling with their genes or be grateful?

Speaking of genetic inheritance and usefulness, why do we still have wisdom teeth and foreskins?

d'E, trust me, as one who had to get her wisdom teeth surgically removed, I'm impressed!

Garius

"All healthy offspring survive, whether they are destined to have wisdom teeth or not"

Surely all that proves is that wisdom teeth are not currently an evolutionary benifit.
They were at some time past, thats why most people have them and they could be again in the future (who knows)

Evolution is normally a very slow process, the adaptions observered by Darwin in the Galapogos had occured over thousands of years of isolation.

It will continue slowly, unless a change in the enviroment forces the pace by wiping out those that cannot survive in the changed conditions.

Not so much survival of the fittest as elimination of the least able to adapt.

In humans the genetic diversity within the species together with the fact that we are an intelligent social animal, (or at least we like to think we are ) results in us being one of the most adaptable species,


(but still out done by the Ants hello Amy ).

PS

I see my powers to influence a game by making predictions have had there usual effect.

The USA beat Mexico 2-0 after my comment that the mexicans were looking forward to beating the USA.

For the benifit of our next match I will therefore predict that Brazil will walk all over us

PPS

have the US media noticed that theres anything going on yet?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/matches_wallchart/mexico_v_usa/newsid_2045000/2045340.stm

[Amy] *waves to BB *

From some way up the backlog

"Oh, and on Israel. Yes I can see why America would want to support a democracy"

Is Israel be a democracy, when it excludes the people who were already there ?

I was just told that short people have no reason to live

Where did this idea that the 'best characteristics' or the most useful characteristics survive evolution come from? If that were true why then does our system of sweating to cool down lead us to dehydrate (very dangerous to humans)? Why are we unable to stop eating when we have had enough to be healthy (the only fat animals you get are those that are fed by humans)? I could go on but you get the picture - Evolution isn't survival of the fittest as in the best it's fittest as in most able to cope with the current situation. (as BB pointed out) Evolution isn't making us ever more effective, it doesn't shed easily stuff that isn't useful anymore any more than it lets us have stuff that is useful (how handy would it have been to hang on to our tails, a third hand).
And the Fat / thin thing fits in completely with social evolution - our ideas and beliefs and attitudes evolve and it is to do with our adapting to the environment, hence it does make sense that thin in the western world is desirable because it indictaes a healthy mate who will breed healthy offspring. that sort of basic stuff is hard wired into (search for good mate) us at a basic animal brain level and it works in conjunction with our higher brain which tells us (from an informed / social point of view) what constitutes a good mate.

Frau G

Foreskins are there to protect the delicate flesh beneath, in the same way that the clitoris has a 'hood'.
Wisdom teeth grow when your mouth is big enough to fit them in, in theory to replace rotton ones that have fallen out. I'd like to know why so many people have teeth that don't fit in their mouths, what's that about evolutionary-wise? I for one had to have 4 molars removed because there wasn't room in my mouth for them and then my wisdom teeth apppeared and have come through at the most bizarre angle cos there's no room for them either.

The evolution commentary is extremely interesting.

I'm not sure if we can really speak to it however. With evolution moving slowly, we can't logically look at what might happen. We believe that we are well adapted to our current situation, even if we might not be.

I'm reminded of a quote (which I will butcher but get the general point across) from Heinlien's Starship Troopers. "I'm sure a male warthog thinks that a female warthog is the height of evolutionary achievement."

I believe we are still evolving, just at such a pace that we won't notice what's happening until it's already phased in and totally accepted.

Courtesy

Bald Bloke -

With reference to Israel being a Democracy. I'm not sure where to place Israel in the whole govt definition. I have issues with a government that can choose to vote no confidence at any point in time, and can reshuffle itself when it sees fit.

I believe that until Israel settles down it's government into something with more stability we won't see peace. If the head of a government must constantly cater to everyone, or they will be voted out in the next few days, then nothing can be achieved. If the leader is elected for a specific time frame and then has the chance to be elected again, then at least during their term they can have a little leeway.

Courtesy

Good quote Courtesy, I was looking for that quote actually.. Rather fitting.

I am going to have minor knee surgery on Friday. Going in to have both of my knees scoped and diagnosed.

Marv -

I hope the scope goes well. I've had several friends who have had the procedure and they were about in a couple of days and doing well in a couple of weeks.

Hopefully they won't find anything wrong.

Courtesy

Courtesy, Perversely I hope that they do find something wrong, but fixable. I want to be able to walk without pain, which has not really happened since I was about 8 years old.

I agree Marv ..... pain is bad when you are walking .... actually pain is bad most of the time.

If it helps, the Marines say that "Pain is weakness leaving the body", if you have walked with pain since 8 then you must be pretty strong.

Courtesy

{[caer csd] with all four wisdom present, not entirely correct but not giving them up to anybody, never knowing when spares may be required }