h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Della....most military folks I know are 21 and younger. Need I say more about nievety and trust?

That notwithstanding, I still maintain that it is the military training that is the main obstacle to rational thought.

We are "free thinkers"....military inducties are not.

We see things as common knowledge that they cannot possibly comprehend as such.

Sad thought, but totally necessary to the job they do.

NM

Possibly, your assertions about military training show why any country as reliant on its military as the USA is in big trouble!

"Apparition......yes, they will courtmarshall your a** in a heartbeat. Your job is to prove an order was illegal. "

So by your statement to outmage, you know the military of every country do you?

In a civilised country. He/She who brings the charges must prove them. ie, it would be the burden of who ever gave the order to prove it was legal if your defence is that it wasn't.

Aparrition...you don't understand what I'm saying...

There is an old saying...don't know where you're from...but around here it goes "S**t rolls downhill".

You can't fight the authority above you in the military(yes, Della...ANY military. If that military is worth its' salt).

Basically, you can protest...you can fight it in court(thats' a joke in the US military), but you are still going to lose.

There are too many people above you with a LOT more influence than you OR your lawyer have.

Take your moral highground and stand on it. You're still gonna' drown. In ANY military organization...the world over.

This is how the military works. It CANNOT function any other way.

NM

Sorry, Della. The "worth its' salt" line I aimed at you....should have gone to Apparition.

But, since I'm here.....just exactly how else does a country defend itself?

You think the US is the only country with an extreamly powerful military?

I'd say more....but I'll let you chew on that thought for a moment.

NM

FS, the caps lock key does not make what you say about orders any more convincing.

"But, since I'm here.....just exactly how else does a country defend itself?" - It can start by not p1ssing everone off.

FS, I realise I am asking a lot of some 21 year old recruit, but I still believe that *I* would stand up against an order to say, commit genocide. Even if I got totally squashed!
It is my view that a country is *of course* allowed to defend itself, but recently, the USA has been going way beyond defending itself, and into attack!

'He was only following orders.'

The problem I have with that statement is the problem I have with the military. When anybody joins a military force, they agree to follow the orders of their commander. They rely on their commander's judgement, and are aren't allowed any independent thought. But when people join the military, they do so because the moral principles of the organization are similar to their own. If there's an order that goes against those principles, I think the soldier should refuse to obey the order.

I know why it doesn't happen all that often. It takes a judgement call, which military personnel aren't using to making. It's so much easier to say 'Well, my commander knows what he's doing. I'll rely upon his judgement.' The military discourages independent thought - another fallacy of the army.

Anybody that joins the military had better know exactly what it represents, what it will fight for, and what it believes to be right and wrong.

Personally, I couldn't be in a military situation, would never follow another's orders if they contradicted my own beliefs, and certainly couldn't kill anybody unless it was in self-defense (and maybe not even then.)

would you, for example, press the fire button on a missile targetted at a place of worship?

In the news this morning (1st July 03) on UK radio I hear that five (maybe more) were killed when a missile was fired at a mosque in Al Felluga, Iraq.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-07-01-iraq-blast_x.htm
http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/07/01072003071020.asp

Della...I would like to think "I" wouldn't, either.....and yes, I'll agree. We've been a bit on the offence as of late.

Yet to see where all that leads. Its' not like the world wasn't already "pissed" at us. I guess the feeling around my parts is "if I'm gonna' be accused, might as well do it".

Lentilla.....you have just outlined the main reasons I have never been in the military.....and thankfully I'm too old for them to have me now!

NM

I heard about that this morning (2nd July, New Zealand time) on the BBC WS, purplejenny. I was completely outraged!

I got the impression that this might have been a terrorist attack rather than a missile fired at the mosque. It's hard to know what to believe - the U.S. military is saying there's no shrapnel, which would have been found around the site if it had been a missile.

We just need to get out of there. This is ridiculous... and things are getting worse. The U.S. tried to appoint a committee to draft a constitution - what the heck is that? No constitution created by an appointed committee will stand up to the will of the people. An elected government needs to happen. Only by popular vote will the Iraqi people get what they want. I don't understand why the U.S. government doesn't get this - this is how the American government was formed.

Fairly - yup, and I'm female, so even if they start up the draft, I should be able to dodge that bullet (so to speak!) If I were ever required to join the military, I'd have to become a nurse. It's the only thing I could stomach morally.

"An elected government needs to happen. Only by popular vote will the Iraqi people get what they want. I don't understand why the U.S. government doesn't get this - this is how the American government was formed."

Actually Lentilla, the electorial colleges were formed to make sure the general public *didn't* have the final say about who was going to govern the country (as was so blatantly demonstrated a couple of years ago).
I'm afraid the USA can't just leave. Inept as they are at governing foriegn sovereign territories, the average Iraqi is better of with them there (the *average* Iraqi was probably better off with Saddam Hussein there, but that's another matter).
Just because it's getting nasty doesn't mean the USA/UK can walk away from the mess it created. I mean, did Bush really think they could swagger in, get the bad guy, hand the keys to the town hall to a cheering crowd and walk off with the oil? Does the guy think he's Bruce Willis or something?
The good thing is that the liars who talked their respective people into having this war are steadily being exposed. When it comes out that Iraq was not able to attack anyone, and that soldiers are dying daily in dusty streets by the people they were supposed to liberating, then Bush and Blair will suffer spectacularly in the polls. It's just a shame so many others had to suffer beforehand.

I watched ABC news last night. There was a story about the first graduates of Iraqi police officers that have been "retrained".

"America won the war alone but now we need some help from these men"

While the UK have been mending bridges with every country it dissagreed with over the war since it was decleared over. America seems to want to increase the number of people p1ssed at it. They media are already starting to pretend the US didn't have any help.

The US cannot leave yet. We'd love to. Most of the population of the US are after "instant gratification". What can I say....I like the idea myself.

The downside is we can't leave, yet. We're not through screwing the country up. Trouble is, if we leave the locals will screw it up worse....and then we'll be blamed for not staying around to long enough get the government right.

Catch 22.

Thats' alright...I'm use to the negative coverage about my country.

But then, we are being begged by the UN to help out in Liberia.?????

Nevermind...I thought we were the bad guys!

As far as the US presidential elections and the Electorial College, you'd have to be from around here to understand.
(and most around here don't understand, either!)
The point of it is to keep any one large state from having excessive control on who gets to be president(lousy job....wouldn't take it if offered)


But this time a small state decided the action. What a shame.

If it had been California or New York with the deciding factor, no-one would have bi**hed.

It was FLORIDA!!!! "W"'s brother was/is governor!!!!!....must be something WRONG!!!!!


LOL...just US government. The way the "Founding Fathers" set it up......and they seem to have been wiser than the rest of the world.

Then, and now.

NM

My appologies, folks.

I'm afraid I posted under my stepsons' "nick" by mistake.

That was me up there.(thus the "NM" at the end)

I'll try to be more careful in the future!

NM

The story I have been hearing today about the mosque incident was that far from religion classes, the imams were taking bomb making classes, and someone messed up.
Yeah, *that's* believable - not!
It's of the calibre of the stories told during the war, about the Baghdad marketplace missiles - they were supposed, despite American serial numbers, to have been fired by Saddam Hussein. Once again, yeah, *that's* believable - not!!!!!

Cumon', Della.

Considering the Middle East and their present mentality, bomb making school is not really all that implausable!

Its' at least as believable as the US government!

I'm on the thoughts of "give up".

The west says they are on the verge of peace in the middle east(don't believe it) and the middle easterners say they'll quite blowing up civilians...(don't believe that either!!!)

If you ask me the whole lot is crazy....but we are stuck with it!

NM

Now dont you know that no one will ever just "give up"? Only when *ell freeves over will there not be any more wars... As for bomb classes... for Bahgdad That would be truly likeable but in the US that would never happen. Nothing is correct during war times anymore (as if it ever was) Everything is created to make veryone believe we are not making any mistakes in the war. And as I am from the US of A during the last war the only casualties that happened where form "military mistakes"... Ya right the Bahgdads just got a lucky shot...

>>Considering the Middle East and their present mentality, bomb making school is not really all that implausable!<<
Bomb making school in a mosque? The American tendency to believe almost anything about a people defined as 'the enemy' notwithstanding, not bl**dy likely!
It's as likely as having the local militia in Montana holding gun club meetings in the local Baptist church! (Oh oh, hold on, that *is* likely!)
Whereas I fully understand if the Iraqis want rid of the American troops, and are teaching guerilla warfare to bring that about, I don't think that the Imam's School of Guerilla Tactics is anywhere *near* as likely as the Nervous American Captain with an itchy trigger finger, who heard a noise and decided on some overkill in response. I mean, come on, fellows and fellesses, it's happened before!