h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Della...I'm sure you've heard the news reports by now...no, the Iraqi Information Minister did not commit suicide. He was apprehended at a checkpoint in Iraq yesterday and surrendered without incedent. Seems reports of his demise were a bit overstated!(what else is new about "Bagdad Bob!!!!LOL)

It relieves me, somewhat. I think the man has a great future in US stand-up comedy!

Lentilla.....you can talk all night and not bring up that snake-oil salesman. If there was ever an "entertainment newsman" Geraldo is it.

I enjoy Fox News, but if they are looking for "fair and balanced", he ain't the one to give it to them!

NM

I agree, I can't stand the man. I cheered when he got his nose broken in the very first wave of talk shows...

Who was it who was using Oliver North as a spokesperson? I thought that was hilarious, considering his past record in the Iran-Contra affair.

So, that's what Ollie North is doing now!

When you think about it, it would be good to have Oliver North as a spokesperson. If your company was involved in anything less than legal, he'd take responsibility, take all the blame.

I think I'll hire him immediately. Not that I'll need anyone to take responsibility for any illegal stuff...

Sorry, I have to defend Ollie.

In the military you follow orders or suffer dire consequences. All he did was do what he was told....or else.

Sure, he was in favor of the action, but its' not like he had much of a choice, even if he didn't.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a big Reagan fan, as well, but that doesn't make Reagan not guilty.

He is as guilty of tarnishing a good military mans' reputation as he was the Iran/Contra affair.

And at least Ollie isn't the showboat "Jerwrongo" is! Fox News should have more like him.

NM

Fairly Strange, 'I was only following orders' didn't work at Nuremberg.

I was sitting in chemistry at my school in Western springs, some five kilometres away from Mt Roskill, when the following thought occured to me:

Alban was sitting a metre in front of me, talking to Rivka and Zoe. Overkill would be throwing a grenade at them, killing them all, so as to kill Alban.
American killing would be to destroy the entire school so as to get Alban.
Israaeli killing would be to destroy Mt Roskill, and to completely fail to get Alban, then claim to have killed him.

Black humour, Jimmy Nugget. Horribly true..
It's 19.00 hours New Zealand time, and we're listening to the BBC WS and every time we've switched on today (at about noon, the first time), we've struck the *same* speech against Iran by Condi Rice! Three times today, we've heard her shouting the same spite. What's that about? Target Iran, not Syria, it would seem - oh, and Jack Straw is in Iran, I just heard...

Adele the Divided:Charmed Quark...No, it didn't. If you'll notice, I didn't say Ollie was completely "without sin".

But....and I'm gonna' get "flammed" for this!!!!.....the underlings at Nuremberg were no more guilty than Oliver North. Its' the "kill or be killed" mentality of the military. Yes, its' irritating, but necessary in their profession.

Besides...I don't think selling a few illegal arms to Iran quite equates with killing 6 million Jews.......but then I'm a Redneck and might not quite understand reality!

NM

Where do I begin?/To tell the story...
Sorry, I had a sudden attack of 1971...
I can't agree with you about underlings, because everyone has to make her (or his) own moral decisions. In the case of something as big as Concentration Camps, it's even more important - and in my view worth any risk a soldier might be taking to *avoid* being a part of the genocide practised in WW2.
Regarding the Iran-Contra scandal (something I wasn't well aware of at the time) Ollie North made an idiot of himself, throwing himself on a grenade for the 'Great Communicator', Reagan. But he chose to do so and is not morally blameless. American meddling in South and Central America has been going on for decades and has had (and still is having) appalling consequences.
BTW, In my opinion, kill or be killed is a darn sight more than 'irritating' and *never* necessary!

Della...

It will never cease to amaze me how a simple "apple and oranges" copmparison on h2g2 can become a discussion on "tomatoes and carrots"!!!LOL

Where the double toothpicks did THAT come from!?

South and Central America? Have I mentioned either? Are either of any consequence for Iran/Contra OR WWII?(for that matter, can you find a link between I/C and WWII?...Funny...I can't either!!!)

Have you ever been involved with anyone who has been, or is, in the military? Perhaps they can clarify "military orders" for you. Yes...you can morally object....but you still get to "enjoy" the repercussions.

Most mortal beings I've met would prefer to avoid that circumstance!

AND ONCE AGAIN!!!!!! I DID NOT say Ollie was BLAMELESS!!!....Just that he didn't have much of a choice!

NM

"Besides...I don't think selling a few illegal arms to Iran quite equates with killing 6 million Jews.......but then I'm a Redneck and might not quite understand reality!"

So the dealers are not as responsible as the junkies? Selling arms illegally while knowing what they're about to be used for *is* as bad as doing the deed in the first place.

"Have you ever been involved with anyone who has been, or is, in the military? Perhaps they can clarify "military orders" for you."

>>South and Central America? Have I mentioned either? Are either of any consequence for Iran/Contra...<
Iran/Contra was all *about* equipping the Contras to overthrow an elected government *in* South America, as you no doubt know (or should if you do not.)
Yes, I have known people in the military, I understand the consequences of disobeying orders, but I think that consequences be damned - if I was in the military and asked to do something outrageous, I would respond with a suggestion that my C.O., see her taxidermist. (Or his.)

They're hardly like to court marshal anyone for disobeying an illegal order. A court marshal would make the details a matter of record.

that was meant to be in my last post.

"But....and I'm gonna' get "flammed" for this!!!!.....the underlings at Nuremberg were no more guilty than Oliver North. Its' the "kill or be killed" mentality of the military."

Following orders is no excuse.
You get ordered to open the valves of a gas chamber and take the lives of men women and children who have done nothing to you. It's no defence to say you were only following orders. We must assume because people are willing to place their decision making in the hands of others, then they must be in general agreement with the type of orders they recieve; if this is the case then they are equally culpable.
If they are in complete disagreement with their orders, then they wouldn't carry them out, regardless of the consequences.

"Why did you sh*t in your hat?"
"Oh, well, I didn't think it would be a good idea. But you can hardly blame me. Someone else told me to do it."

Della../.yeah, you "burnt" me......its' been so many years my memory didn't pull in all the details of the Iran/Contra affair. Yes, the US spends way too much time interferring in South and Central Americas' politics.

Keep in mind that I'm an "old hippie". My wifes' family is military from birth.(we avoid family political discussions at any cost!)

Its' easy for us "lay-people" to pass judgement or to state bravely what we would do if we were put in these circumstances. You have to remember that these people are trained to follow orders.

Later, once they leave the service,.....after the training wears off....they may see where an order was wrong. Too late. They are already guilty.

That may not save Ollie in your opinion, for he still maintains the "rightness" of his actions(thats' another discussion), but truth be known his choices at the time were "catch 22". Be destroyed from above or below. Looks like he took the most lucrative route.

Apparition......yes, they will courtmarshall your a** in a heartbeat. Your job is to prove an order was illegal.

Wanna' try busting a generals'(dare I say Presidents') a** in a military tribunal in the US!? Ain't gonna' happen. You gonna' spend more than a few years in prison with a dishonorable discharge from the military on your record for the rest of your life.

Know what? Job opportunities dissappear once you are free...even if the boss-to-be is a liberal!

NM

>>They're hardly like to court marshal anyone for disobeying an illegal order. A court marshal would make the details a matter of record.<<
A good point, Apparition!

outmage....I see you have no understanding of how the military...in any country...works. At all.

See above post.

NM

Au contraire, Fairly Strange, I think Outmage has it sussed - the moral issue takes precedence, and anyone who blindly follows an order only to wake up months or years later and realise s/he was wrong, would have to be very young, naive or totally unthinking!