h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Jordan:

"When did she say that she knew what he was posting? Or, for that matter, that she allowed him to post from her account? If you can show the former, you have something of a case. If you can only show the latter, that 'case' would be significantly clearer."

In response to which: F63593?thread=407830&skip=68

Specifically, Della's younger son said: "it [the death threat] was in a posting made by Della was because she was logged in at the time, and posted what I said."

I repeat: is this clear enough for you? Do you now understand where your version of events is in error?

H.

I now note with some degree of amazement that the first posting in this thread has now been removed permanently.

As far as I could see, it broke no rules of the site. The subject line remains even to this posting, so that obviously doesn't break the rules, otherwise every message in this thread would have to be hidden. And the text was merely a question. A contentious question, without a doubt, but a valid one. (And, I might add, one I've never seen answered...).

It's interesting to note that Jordan has been able to manipulate the moderators into removing it despite its innocuousness. I've seen some baffling moderation decisions in my time on h2 (have I ever!) but this one is a new one, especially since the posting has been visible, even prominent, for nearly ten months.

I suppose it's pointless asking why, if it's been OK for it to be visible since the day Della made her death threat, it's now, suddenly, in breach of the rules. The standard answer is that moderation decisions are not discussed on site. However, it's also my experience that moderation decisions are not discussed in any useful way offsite either. And this case is compounded by the fact that the person who made the posting, and therefore will have received the moderation email, no longer uses the site and if I know him at all, is unlikely to care at this stage.

All in all, most unsatisfactory.

H.

Honestly Jordan, for someone who says he wishes this whole thing could be put to rest, you certainly seem to be keeping it going on your part.

Basically, uttering death threats is illegal in most countries.

There is no 'would it be possible?' nonsense involved - the fact that a death threat is made is illegal.

The fact that Jimster and the rest of the h2g2 PTB didn't immediately ban Della and Apparition shows a great deal of lenience on their part, which does not seem to be appreciated by either Della or her son.

Fact: a death threat was made using Della's account

Fact: nobody was banned as a result

Fact: Della and Apparition tap-danced their way around this, somehow trying to 'blame' blicky for this happening when it *was* in fact Apparition who had copied blicky's page and upset his mother without letting her know he had done this, upsetting her to the point where she wrote a death threat that (apparently) her younger son had uttered.

Fact: this is all very tedious by now

As far as I know, neither Della nor Apparition have apologized to blicky. And they also seem to take Jimster's lenience with them as a 'given' and then berate him when he gets fed up and agrees with others that they are being unreasonable.

Don't get me wrong - I wouldn't have liked to see Della banned because of this. I know she was overreacting during a time of grieving for her brother - I think Jimster also realized this. But her subsequent behaviour over this issue has not been responsible.

I have nothing to say about Apparition/Bain because I have never had anything to do with him. But Della *is* a hootoo friend of mine - we have both worked on getting over our differences and have discovered that we do have things in common we can chat about.

I can only suppose that the reason this issue is not dead (as it should be by now) is because Della and Apparition/Bain have not properly apoligized to blicky for what they did and others have taken umbrage to this on blicky's behalf.

This could be easily remedied. Don't you think?


az

Firstly, sorry for not answering earlier. Someone, apparently, has been trying to get into my account, and so it was locked for half an hour.

Annoyingly, I had just finished writing something, and I got the 'Greetings, unknown hiker' message, which was not pleasing. I saved it, so I'll cut and paste those parts which are still relevent.


'Jordan: serious question. Given that your grasp of the facts of this matter are so shaky, and that your memory of it is so unreliable, why do you believe anyone should give your opinion of what YOU think happened any weight?'

My 'grasp of the facts' is not at question when considering what weight to give to my opinion. Also, as you'll note, when I suspect something is subject to the caprice of shifting neurones, I've included some sort of disclaimer to the effect. Witness:

'So far as I recall...'

'I can't actually remember...'

Underhand speculation about why anyone should credit anything I say because I don't remember every detail of the event is quite unnecessary.


'Member is/was a person known to me, a colleague about twenty years older than I am who shares many (but my no means all) of my attitudes. It amused him to post here in threads and in conversation with users he had reached via my space...'

He's also a liar, then, because he claimed that he had no idea who you were. And I do SUSPECT that he is you, though I have the good sense to remain healthily uncertain about the possibility. To be honest, I alluded to it just to be annoying. Sorry.


'No, as you well know. Obviously I need to repeat myself.'

Please don't bother. I got it the first time. I was, as you seem to recognise, being sarcastic. Now, to respond seriously:


'Can YOU be certain, and I mean 100% certain, that Della could NOT arrange for blicky to suffer physical harm?'

Of course not. The point isn't what he's capable of, but what's likely. Perhaps he really would have killed blicky if he were in the room with him; perhaps not, but the actual likelihood of anyone coming to harm is minimal. So minimal, in fact, that I'm startled we're speculating about it.


'I have suggested nothing unusual or even particularly improbable.'

You actually believe it is a distinct possibility that he would actively try to have blicky killed, or even injured?


'Bravo - you're happy to bet someone else's life on that.'

I didn't 'bet' anyone's life on anything! What a bizarre suggestion! If he really does want to kill blicky, then banning him from the site certainly isn't going to do anything, except maybe aggravate him even more. Evidently, you're quite willing to take this terrifying risk, since you keep targetting his mother.


'You have a threat to kill someone. You have a reiteration that the threat is serious...'

Irrelevent. It's a spur of the moment announcement, and (again, so far as I remember -- and no one has argued with me about this one) on provisio that he is actually within proximity of blicky. Even ignoring that last embellishment, his posting was obviously nothing he had carefully considered. His temper got the better of him, he said something unwise, and you want him banned?


'Please see above comment about getting your facts straight. If you're going to persist in stubbornly refusing to deal with the facts as established...'

Because of the threads you've turned up, my response to this one is going to be rather different. Suffice to say (for now) that I'm perfectly capable of admitting when I'm wrong, if reason exists, as you know well.


'...you're going to start coming in for the same kind of
contemptuous ridicule that Della gets.'

Just who are you to decide who gets 'ridiculed' by whom? I trust you
speak only for yourself?

Spare me some time, now, to respond to the other postings you've made.

- Jordan

OK, your links.

It's not conclusive evidence, but I don't see the point in arguing the case, and besides, if I had those threads to hand then I wouldn't have argued with such certainty. So, I'm sorry. It was an oversight.

However, this doesn't change a few things:

Even knowing what her son was posting, it doesn't mean that she herself really wanted to kill anyone. I do believe her, and her son, when they say that Maths Wizard was the composer of the 'death-threat' comment. Therefore, there's nothing to suggest that Della herself supports murder; all you've got is the possibility that Della let someone post something nasty from her account.

Hmm...


'The matter was dealt with at the time, and is, in that sense, closed.'

That's precisely my point!!!


'However, what I'm concerned about - what, specifially, I am amused by - is someone who doesn't mind using their h2g2 account to threaten to kill other people then painting themself as an "extreme pacifist".'

Oh, so you just couldn't refrain from commenting about it? I seem to recall you saying this:

'


'There's no rule-breaking involved in Della's hypocrisy, so why would I bother the moderators? Similarly, lying through your teeth, repeatedly, is not against house rules. Neither, I think, is pointing it out.'

Let us put this into perspective:

Della's son, with her consent, makes a hasty, spur-of-the-moment posting from her account;
A thread with the title 'Death-threat Della' was started on Della's space;
The business was concluded;
Nearly a year later, you started trying to revive this thread;
And finally, earlier today, you chose to comment on something completely irrelevent, in what seems to be a bizarre campaign to upset Della.

How precisely is this not deliberately hurtful and cruel? What points did you not understand, from my original post, about how you're breaking the House Rules? From what do you deduce that there's 'nothing for the moderators here,' especially considering that the Editors have already demonstrated that they are quite interested in this thread?

- Jordan

'It's interesting to note that Jordan has been able to manipulate the moderators into removing it despite its innocuousness.'

Thank you.

If you actually read what I say, my motivation for having the posting removed doesn't necessarily reflect what I said to the moderators, and I don't feel obliged to justify myself, nor to compromise the moderators.

- Jordan

"Della's son, with her consent, makes a hasty, spur-of-the-moment posting from her account;"

Jordan, either accidently or willfully you seem to be missing the point here slightly.

What happened was not that Maths Wizard typed the threat whilst Dellas account was logged into, but Della *TYPED IT PERSONALLY HERSELF*, she took dictation from her son but it was Della who inputted the death threat from her account into hootoo.

Now however one tries to portray the situtation she is undoubtably responsible.

She could have chosen not to type it, or to ask her son to log into his account if he wanted. Similarly she could have chosen not to add the siffix that it was a "serious" threat and thus leaving it clearly toungue in cheek.

She choose to do none of these things. If the cap fits....

hi Jordan,

Any thoughts on my posting 363?

az

'Honestly Jordan, for someone who says he wishes this whole thing could be put to rest, you certainly seem to be keeping it going on your part.'

Someone keeps it going, you try to get them to stop -- and now you're 'keeping it going?'

People have used this argument on me so many times. I say I don't like arguing; suddenly, I'm expected to be a pushover, because if I argue with anything I'm a hypocrite. I say that people should stop discussing someone behind their back; they continue to do it, I tell them to stop, and *I'm* the one at fault because I started a conversation. I know you don't mean anything nasty by it, but it's a general form of argument I've always resented, the attempt to shut someone up by making them feel guilty, or hypocritical.


'Fact: Della and Apparition tap-danced their way around this, somehow trying to 'blame' blicky for this happening when it *was* in fact Apparition who had copied blicky's page and upset his mother without letting her know he had done this, upsetting her to the point where she wrote a death threat that (apparently) her younger son had uttered.'

Apparition, as Hoo pointed out, wasn't the one who made the death threat -- it was Maths Wizard.


'Fact: this is all very tedious by now.'

Too right. Why isn't it over?


'This could be easily remedied. Don't you think?'

Yes.

1. Della and Maths Wizard could, out of the blue, decide to apologise here and now. Hopefully, Hoo would stop posting to this conversation, and making references to it.

2. Hoo could stop posting to this conversation, and making references to it.

Number one requires that Della and Maths Wizard decide they're wrong, and are contrite enough that they're willing to humiliate themselves for a while.

Number two requires that someone exercise some restraint.

SHOOT! I forgot to quote that conversation!!!

- Jordan

Oh dear Jordan.

Here are the facts.

Bain copied my site it upset people not smart enough to think of other possibilities who concluded I had hacked several PSs.

A certain unimmaginative person got angry and falsely accused me on several threads of hacking. When I said the truth that I had not and the ruther truth that the person responsible for the "hacking" was her own flesh and blood my accuser issued first on and then another death threat.

She said someone else had spoken them but they came to me via her account.

Then when the truth came out I was granted an apology which included a further untrue assertion about me. Unsurprisingly I found thei "apology" to be unsatisfactory.

Then Bain who had immitated my site when he was using his APPY account showed up spouting more onesided clap trap and pretending to be impartial.

**********************************************************************


The death threat did not bother me it only got my back up because it was issued in the erronious belief and backed up with the assertion that I deserved it for lying something I dont do very often and rightly get very when proven liars accuse me of such low down tactics.

So I agree with Hoo bringing up Dellas two death threats in relation to this "im a pacifist lie she touts. She has also posted her thoughts on "slapping" women for different reasons too.

I like the truth I think its good.

I *like* the fact that you stick up for Della, BUT it doesnt mean that your valour makes you right. You are coming at this at the severe disadvantage of having some very basic facts wrong. Not surprising given who you are siding with and their propensity for telling lies to obcure unpleasant truths about themselves.

Amongst these lies is the idea that Hoo is Member. Member never tried to say he was Hoo, he tried to make others think he was and even had me for a while. I might have believed his fakery had he not let the mask slip in ways that were consistent with Member being a different person, who was like but not the same as Hoo. Thus they try to rubbish anything either says by claiming the source totally taints all of the arguments that come from them.

Della's clan use the idea that Hoo and Memeber were lying (Member said he doesnt know *the character* Hoo, though he obvioulsy knew the *person* who posts as Hoo.


On a similar note Im NOT annoymous as you put it my real name is on siteand often used by Della and clan. Plus there is enough information to locate me on any given Saturday.

one love

Bugger.

I was going to quote Hoo from the 'Moral Majority' thread. The bit where he talks about people who 'can't prevent [themselves] reacting to something they read.' Instead, all I've got is a bit saying 'Didn't you yourself say: [single quote mark]'



- Jordan

'Jordan, either accidently or willfully you seem to be missing the point here slightly.

'What happened was not that Maths Wizard typed the threat whilst Dellas account was logged into, but Della *TYPED IT PERSONALLY HERSELF*, she took dictation from her son but it was Della who inputted the death threat from her account into hootoo.'

I'm missing the bit where Della said that she typed it herself. Perhaps it could be three hours sleep, perhaps not, but I genuinely haven't seen anything to that effect. I can't see evidence for that in any of the conversations Hoo cited; perhaps if you spell it out for my rather tired mind by quoting the post number, and the relevent section - I'm guessing you know where it is...?

- Jordan

<>

Um, not behind anyone's back since this thread is actually on Della's personal space.


<>

I reckon that would do it.

As well as an apology from Apparition/Bain for having copied blicky's page and starting the whole thing off.


I also think both blicky and Hoo would agree to this and - once done - call it a day.

Am I right boys?


az

ps

'boys' being an affectionate term for 'guys' or what have you - in case either of you take offence.


z

I should have mentioned at the end of that last posting that, despite appearances, I'm NOT REALLY INTERESTED in the truth. As I pointed out, I'm simply disturbed that Hoovooloo persists in reopening this conversation when by all rights, it should be dead.

Hi Blicky,

I was actually wondering when you'd step in. I entertained the possibility of posting a link to your space, with the subject 'Are your ears ringing?'


'So I agree with Hoo bringing up Dellas two death threats in relation to this "im a pacifist lie she touts. She has also posted her thoughts on "slapping" women for different reasons too.'

Two?

And please let's not get into another topic! She can say what she wants about slapping women.


'I like the truth I think its good.'

Yes, the truth is great, but this isn't about the truth; this is about harrassment. Hoo is harrassing Della repeatedly, regardless of who says what and who's right about what. It's very sad and quite unworthy of someone who's opinions I hold in such esteem.

I came here because I wanted him to stop posting to this conversation. As az says, in doing so I've started another debate, but sometimes to put an end to something you have to step in and, as his (very funky) girlfriend suggested, DO something.

I quite give up on arguing about what Della actually did. I was upset because I believed she was being misrepresented, and it seems that I was wrong. So let's make it clear, I've finished with that topic, and now I'm just asking that Hoo behave a little more responsibly. Just because you consider something funny doesn't mean it's appropriate, and returning to a year-old issue isn't appropriate.

- Jordan

'Um, not behind anyone's back since this thread is actually on Della's personal space.'

Sorry, I was demonstrating the technique as I see it being used, not referring to this situation in particular.


'I reckon that would do it.'

Perhaps it would, but why should it take that? I always try to apologise to someone if I feel I've been unjust, or made a baseless comment, but I don't expect everyone to return the favour. Neither do I bring it up several months later.

Now, sure, some people have more pride in that respect, and have longer memories. I don't debate that. However, in bringing it up again and again, and in the manner it is being brought up, Hoovooloo is placing himself firmly outside the scope of the House Rules.

- Jordan

<>

Well, that's too bad, isn't it Jordan? Also, you are much too intelligent to make such a stupid statement so I will assume it was something emotional.

You seem to have a thing - a big beef - with Hoo. This you could also do elsewhere if you don't like his posting style. And not use this situation with Della as a forum to tell everyone how much you don't like Hoo.

I quite like Hoo.

I like you very much too, as you know!

I love blicky cos he's my little hootoo bro.

I like Della too, in spite of our past differences, I really respect her efforts to be friends with me.

As for Apparition/Bain - no opinion as I don't know him at all.

As for Math's Wizard - he spoke with emotion, was upset - no problem there, it was just a shame that his mother posted his feelings.

I think you should sort out your own feelings about why you are posting here Jordan. If you aren't interested in knowing the truth about what happened, why Hoo and others keep pestering Della, then I think another thread might be more appropriate.

I'm mostly on your side. I'd like to see the entire thing dropped, but I do think the apoligies are required in order for this to happen.


az

<>

An apology would in no way humiliate Della and Maths Wizard - many people apologise for getting things wrong on this site and it is normally met with an . Knowing the people on this site - whatever things they do say, they are on the whole fair people and a true honest apology would be met with a thank you and a congratulations for standing up and being counted. How can you be humiliated for doing *the right thing*?

I agree Alfster, an apology would be no sort of humilation at all - it would in fact show the 'apologizers' as being big enough and strong enough to admit when they have made a mistake. Heck, we all make mistakes . . .

az

But you see, I don't have a beef with Hoo! As a matter of fact, before he left, I considered him a good friend -- he's intelligent, a great and ready debater, and he has an incredible breadth of knowledge which I sometimes find breathtaking. If you'll look over my past conversations, he's actually been very supportive of me when I've been going through bad times. I'm upset because he's keeping something going which he has no reason to prolong, except for his own impulsive sense of humour. I brought the issue up with him precisely because I know that he's intelligent enough to understand a fair point, and thick-skinned enough not to take offense.

When I say I'm not interested in the truth, you should perhaps ask why. You accused me of keeping it going; well, it seems that the only thing which is keeping it going is my own misapprehension. And so, I give up on that count. I've made my point, it has been missed, and I've continued to make it: this sort of harrassment simply isn't appropriate. It's not that, if the truth about the matter was dangled in front of me, I wouldn't be eager to know it; I'm just that I've got more important concerns.


'I think you should sort out your own feelings about why you are posting here Jordan. If you aren't interested in knowing the truth about what happened, why Hoo and others keep pestering Della, then I think another thread might be more appropriate.'

I've already SAID what my feelings are! I think Hoo should drop it. I already suggested that he stop spreading the bad vibes; he ignored me, and so I took matters into my own hands:

1. I told him that this was against the House Rules;
2. I asked the moderators to remove the first posting, thus replacing the unpleasant subject with an innocuous '.'

And hopefully, it will end.

Regardless of how great an apology would be, I don't think any will be forthcoming. Therefore, I suggest again, like I did a year ago, that we try to forget about it? Continuing to debate about it is as pointless as masturbation and not even half as fun.


'I like you very much too, as you know! '

Aw, shucks!

- Jordan