h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

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There would appear to be a difference of opinion here between you and Sam, as I was quoting him on this one.

I'm not convinced by your analogy about the beggars. I didn't *create* the beggars, and my ability to help them may well be limited. But that doesn't apply to God, right? That some people *will* suffer eternal torment could have been avoided. That God chose not to avoid it doesn't seem to be the action of a loving entity.

Any thoughts on the difference between knowledge without proof and mere conviction?

Noggin

>>Imagine you are walking down the road and 10 beggars come up to you. You decide just go give money to the first two and walk on. Now are you being evil? No.<<

You are placing limitations on god by this example, GN. If you believe that god is not omnipotent, and has limited power to save, then I concede that by your beliefs god is not evil. However, if your example was more representative of an omnipotent god, it might run something more like this:

>>Imagine you are walking down the road and 10 beggars come up to you. You decide just go give money to the first two and walk on, despite the fact that you possess an infinite amount of money, lose nothing by giving to the beggars, have an infinite amount of time at your disposal and, indeed, could eliminate poverty merely by willing it so. Now are you being evil?<<

Frankly, yes. At the very best, you are being callous, arbitrary and discriminatory. Add to this the fact that (to extend your analogy) you created poverty, when (you being all-powerful and answerable to no-one) there was no need to do so, you become someone in whose company I, for one, would not choose to spend five minutes, let alone all eternity.

Well Sam might have a different view from me. I should have said though that while all Hyper-Calvinists believe in double predestination and Supralapsarianism (which is:

1) God's decree to glorify himself through the election of some and the reprobation of others;
(2) as a means to that goal, the decree to create those elected and reprobated;
(3) the decree to permit the fall; and
(4) the decree to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.)

some non-Hyper Calvinists believe in it as well. This is opposed to predestination and infralapsarianism (which is:

(1) God's decree to glorify himself through the creation of the human race;
(2) the decree to permit the fall;
(3) the decree to elect some of the fallen race to salvation and to pass by the others and condemn them for their sin; and
(4) the decree to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.)

which is what I am more inclined to and that is what I have been arguing for.


'Any thoughts on the difference between knowledge without proof and mere conviction?'

I'm sorry but I don't really understand the question.

Noggin,

There is no 'moral' problem whatsoever.

The problem with man is that he constantly seeks to evaluate scipture in light of his own moral reasoning and ideas about good and evil.

We Christians believe that our God is a God of Justice, and that He does the things He says in Scripture because justice demands it. We cannot comprehend this because our idea of justice is imperfect. We can merely trust in the fact that God is love and that he wishes that none should perish. However, it is clear from scripture that many will perish, and that is to be regretted. But death is the inevitable consequence of sin and that cannot be denied.

>>all Hyper-Calvinists believe in double predestination and Supralapsarianism (which is:...<<

>>This is opposed to predestination and infralapsarianism (which is:<<

You surely must concede, though, that whichever branch of Calvinism to which you subscribe, the belief is inherent that god creates some people, knowledgably and deliberately, with the intention of burning them forever in hell.

In what way does this make god good, loving and just?

>>The problem with man is that he constantly seeks to evaluate scipture in light of his own moral reasoning and ideas about good and evil.<<

Genesis 3:5 (KJV) "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Your own scripture, Sam - yours, not mine - states that we do not need god to tell us right from wrong, that we know it as a result of our "fall" (not that the "SATANIC" jews, whose scripture this was before it was yours, would see it as a fall).

Perhaps you should re-read Genesis, Sam. The tree was not the tree of sin, nor of death, it was the tree of knowledge.

This statement from GrandSamDonald sums it up:

"The problem with man is that he constantly seeks to evaluate scipture in light of his own moral reasoning and ideas about good and evil."

"The problem with m[e] is that [I] constantly seek[] to evaluate scipture in light of [my] own moral reasoning and ideas about good and evil."

I'd like to add myself to the "I don't want to go to Heaven if you and an evil mean 'God' are there" camp.



Sincerely,

a disgruntled sinning gothic athiest, who wouldn't repent if you had a gun to my head

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In other words, you don't even know what you're giving your assent to. No wonder you can't explain it to anyone else.

Noggin

hoo-boy, even I managed to get dragged into this one. Now, if someone would please not mind to bring me up to speed...whom is it that is attempting to say that the two groups are co-depent and who is it that is saying that the two are mutually exclusive (for purposes of tabulating premises,etc. into a logical argument,support of ____viewpoint, thank you)? Now I for one have a hard time seeing where literalists get off telling everybody else that their viewpoints must be wrong (in order for said literalists to feel satisfied with their own case), other than, that like politics, some people also enjoy arguing about religion and philosophy, when that is, they meet opposing viewpoints (or assumed to be opposing viewpoints which are simply differing ones). I bet there is currently still a flat Earth Society in new York somewhere...Not that that exactly has much relevancy to the current case at hand...s

...Other then that for said people it can otherwise be simply quite fun.
Not exactly a Goth, slightly Celtic...Does that mean i'd be a Gael-goth? Is there such a thing...?
Who knows?
-Thorn

As far as I can tell, Sam and Good_News think that the only people going to Heaven are people like them, ie. ones who think that the Bible is 100% literal, even the bits that contradict each other and the bits that are obviously untrue, while other types of Christians, (which seems to be everyone here except the two of them) esp. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, pagans, athiests and everyone else is going to Hell. No exceptions.

Sam in particular seems to be a bigoted prejudice fool, and considers everyone else's beliefs to be a form of satanism

Read the other journals, they're very entertaining, especially the one about Harry Potter books.

BTW Sam, when I first read this journal entry I thought you must be some sort of parody or joke, I didn't seriously think people like you existed anymore. I'm saddened to learn differently.

Okay thanks. Um, don'tcha think he might already have gotten his viewpoint bashed in enough though?
Poor fellow. Seriously though with people that are absolutely dead set upon trying to put their viewpoint on over everybody elses' (Whether in polityics,religion,economics,etc.) If you argue too much with them, it might take nothing short of an avalanche of evidence contrary to get them to be more open-minded, and even then...I mean i'm not siding w/him or anything, am just trying to respectfully disagree with an opinion that greatly differs from my own...Whether or not this is because I was raised Californian or not though, I'll probably never know.
,,?, etc.

Hi thorn

People like Sam will keep bashing people over the head with their views until the cows come home, or the Rapture, whichever comes first

I don't actually have a problem with his beliefs, it's just the way he's expressing them that's really getting up my nose. I don't have time to search for examples, I have to go to w**k soon, but he's said that some Christians of his own denomination (I think) have a "catholic stench" about them cos they may want to use rosary beads, he's made very derogatory remarks about gays and pagans, and yet he still thinks he's better than us and we deserve to go to hell.

hee,hee,hee... I might also assume that within this guy's mind (using his own reasoning), trhen he would think himself not to be going to hell.
But since we'll all be there anyway, at least there will be one less to be arguing with. oh,God one of those...Probably will say that i have said the name of the lord in vain. These sort of people just have very little tolerance for religious/(irreverent-whatever)humor. Might mind asking him then, well alright smart guy, then what is the Lord's middle name but will probably be electronically laid siege to if I do. Coincidentally, I do not think there is a viking smiley, but maybe there should be.

Hey great idea, you should mention it to the Campaign for New Smileys!



Oh, no he's been chosen by god, or something or I think he's accepted Jevus's something. It got a bit confusing for a while, with Calvinism and predestination. Either way, I think our Sam's going to find Heaven a very lonely place

I really have to go to w**k now, I'll check back in a a few hours when more of you Brits are awake.

"Hey great idea, you should mention it to the Campaign for New Smileys!"

Hi Good News

"I honestly despair. I know that Religious Education is going to the dogs these days but I thought people were still taught basic Christianity."

Really? My grasp on your rather limited 'interpretation' of christianity is fairly firm my friend. Your grasp seems to rule out all consideration of moral values.

"No understanding of what it means to be saved, a Christian, the New Testament or even the difference between civil and ceremonial laws."

If you accept that the Bible, both the OT and the NT, are the literal truth of God, then all His laws are sacred. You cannot choose which to believe and which to ignore, you do not have that right, you must obey all His father's laws as Jesus instructed. If you do not then you are still in Sin. Your claim to being saved is false. I suggest you reread Leviticus in particular and begin to apply all those laws to your daily life.

"No understanding of free-will or the Fall."

I understand them well enough. Let us take the Fall first.

This is where your merciful and ever-loving God decided to curse all of humanity until the judgement with Sin, because of the actions of just two. During that time God himself committed genocide once and had His chosen wipe out hundreds of thousands at His direct command. This is like me arresting and imprisoning you because one of your distant ancestors stole one of my ancestor's bike. It is petty and spiteful.

The Christian concept of free-will is a myth. How can you have free-will if:
a) you decide that your God is triple-O. His ominipotence alone means that nothing can occur without His divine will, thus there is no free-will.
b) the only way to salvation is by accepting Christ and obeying His laws, thus giving up your will to His.

"Shows that you refuse to read the Bible and probably didn't read what I wrote."

I have read the Bible, cover to cover, many times, and still do. I read what you said very carefully for even a glimmer of free will or rational intelligence. You have deliberately chosen not to answer my questions, typical of someone who is unable to answer them as to do so might infect them with doubt.

"I never said it would not be eternal torment. All I said was the torment would be worse for some than others. And I gave you a Bible quote. You probably will ignore it but you seem to be in a habit of ignoring the Bible."

Excuse me but Revelations is clear - the final punishment is to be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Bible quote you used was an obfuscation not an answer - try harder. I don't ignore the Bible at all, it is a fascinating and dangerous text.

"It is not the preacher who is living in sin. If a man hears that he must repent but refuses then he will go to Hell. And I don't say that with pleasure. At the moment, most of my friends will go to Hell and I don't particularly like that idea. But whether I like it or not is not the point."

Really? I think I covered this above so we will let that lie. What if a man does not hear, or does not understand, or simply cannot accept because the preacher was ineffectual and unconvincing? This is what you refuse to answer, your complicity in the fall of that soul into fire and darkness. There again you're saved so you're OK. I wonder if the man Jesus would be satisfied with your holier than thou smugness? I somehow doubt it.

"You have heard of Him so you have no excuse. Good News told you. And I gave you some Biblical evidence that you might go to Heaven if you had never heard of Him but were 'virtuous'."

Re-read the first sentence of your reply. I was putting the case of a man who had not heard the Word. Your Biblical evidence was pretty pathetic and unclear and will not wash here in the company of intelligent debaters.

By your interpretation of Scripture the Good Samaritan is destined for Hell. He was not a saved Christian.

"But if that is not true and you care that much, become a missionary. These people don't stand preaching on street corners for the fun of it-they are trying to save you."

Surely you should care that much. It is you who should become the missionary and convince me of my Sin. If you do not, and are unable to do so, then what sort of Christian are you?

I get the feeling from my regular challenges to these people on the street corner and my doorstep that it is not my soul they fear for, it is theirs. They fear their God and what He might have in store for them if they do not live up to His expectations. They also seem to fear me - after all as a practicing druid priest I am obviously in league with Satan. Something which is now probably bouncing around in your mind?

I find this intensely amusing as I never challenge their faith, I never ask them to give up their Christianity. What I do is reach for my Bible and ask them to show they live by their God's laws. How can I respect a preacher or missionary who doesn't?

I haven't met one yet who can, which I find enormously sad for I have a great respect for the man Jesus descibed in Matthew's Gospel. He was what we call a Mabon, a great teacher just as was the Gautama Buddha, Mahomet - may his name be blessed of Allah, Karl Marx, Nietzche and the Mahatma Ghandi.

"I am not smug. I'm just preaching the Bible. And I hope that one day you will realise the reality of Hell and repent before it is too late."

You hope that I shall accept that your God has chosen to damn me to eternal torment if I won't worship and glorify Him, and choose the coward's way out. If we British had had this attitude in 1940 we'd be carrying this conversation on in German. Fear is not a basis for a decent relationship to the divine.

Now if your God was merciful He would say: "Worship me and live in paradise. If you don't then I will just ignore you." Or perhaps "If you don't then when you die you will just cease to exist." But He doesn't does He? He, the omnipotent deity, has decided that he needs to threaten us with eternal torment. A bit pathetic if you ask me.

All this talk of your God's love is pure trollocks. How can He love humanity and still condemn the greater portion of it to the Lake of Fire simply because it doesn't love Him back? How can you, in all conscience support this?

Sorry, I forgot, you are saved so you are alright - smugness personified.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\

Matholwch,

You have no business coming to my website and lecturing born again Christians on what they ought to believe.

An unsaved man like yourself may as well read Kubla Khan in ancient Sanskrit as read the Bible. You cannot possibly understand the things of God, since He has not yet opened your eyes to them.

You are in league with the master of *this* world, you are not in the service of Jehovah, the Christian God of the Bible. Until you are born again in His Spirit, you cannot begin to comprehend Christian scriptures.

Jesus was no 'Mabon' like Mohammed or Ghandi or Marx. You really do mock the Lord Almighty when you say things like that. Jesus is God, and He has the power to cast you into hell. Salvation lies in His Name alone. All other religions are false, and satanic by default.

Ye must repent and be born again.

I am sorry if this sounds a tad offensive, but that is the Gospel of Christ.