h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

<> (Heathen)

Woody Allen also did a great take on this in his film Deconstructing Harry. Apparently the lower levels of Hell, with the worst punishments, were reserved for the media, lawyers and the guy who invented aluminum siding. And Billy Crystal was a wonderful Satan who had air-conditioning (cos it f**ked up the environment) and a very well-stocked bar with lots of ice.


az

'in the presence of my family and most of the people I have known and loved.'

Dream on. You have obviously no understanding of Hell. Even the 'good' person will recieve an awful punishment. In Hell, you will not see your family or any loved ones. You'll live in utter misery for eternity with flesh-eating worms everywhere (as the Lord Jesus stated) and fire burning all around you. Plus you'll probably have a swim in the lake of fire as well.

The choice is yours. As Jesus said, 'repent or perish.'

<>

Curious choice of words. Have nots? As in not having had a flashy sports car given to us by our father? As in not being given a pleasant holiday in Italy to enjoy the sun and wine there?

Wow, you really have a warped idea of humanity if you think anyone here is actually 'jealous' of you and your rich family, and the toys and posh recreation they supply you with.

I believe the comment made 'against personal wealth' was someone speaking the words of Jesus. Jesus seemed to be quite against the concept of personal wealth. I don't think it is said anywhere in the bible that Jesus would be happy driving around in an SLK (whatever that is). You have chosen to interpret this for yourself, to back up whatever cherry-picking of the bible you are obviously doing.

Which again leads me to wonder why you call yourself a born-again Christian?

Your opinions and beliefs have nothing to do at all with Christ's teachings.

Jesus did not hate sinners. He loved them. He invited them all into the house of his Father, but even if they refused the invitation, this didn't make him love them any less.

Sorry to disillusion you but I cannot scrape up even one iota of jealousy about your car. And I don't need an Italian holiday.

In case you haven't noticed, what you have taken for 'jealousy' has been various people making fun of you boasting about your car.

I think most of us feel rather sorry for you.

It turns out that you are much poorer than the rest of us, but you have yet to realise this very obvious fact.


az

ps
I cannot afford to give money to charities but I do take care of two street people I have befriended here - I think Jesus would approve.

'Could you please point me to the place in the Bible where it says that the unsaved shall go to hell?'

Certianly. The following are a few examples.

'For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.' (John 3:16)


'...I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' John 3:3

'He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.' John 3:18

'He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who PRACTICE MAGIC ARTS, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.' Revelation 21:7-8

There are many more but you can look them up yourself (read your Bible or go to http://www.biblegateway.com/).

‘There you will find that we are destined for the Lake of Fire with Death and Sin. No punishment appropriate to our sin, just eternal fire.’

Oh yes. There will be a lake of fire (but not all of Hell might be fire-Matthew 25:30 talks about Hell being a dark place-fire and darkness do not go together so different parts of Hell must be different).. But anyway, a prison is a dull grey place (especially in harsher countries). And while all criminals go there, they get different punishments. The Bible states that people will get different punishments:

‘And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.’ Luke 12:47-48
This passage suggests that God will judge people as individuals. While all the unsaved will go to Hell, He will judge their character. There are other passages as well which speak of God judging people by their rightousness but you can look them up yourself.

‘there we will meet and spend eternity holding up all the unbaptised babies that were not saved out of the flames.’
Baptism does not save you. Baptism is just a sign that you have become a Christian. You are confusing me with a traditional Roman Catholic (and even they say that unbaptised babies go to limbo, not Hell-get your facts straight!)

‘Your concept of only the unsaved going to 'hell' doesn't take into account that you 'real' christians have singularly failed to bring the message of your God to all people on the planet.’

God will judge these people accordingly. But we know that if they have heard the Gospel but refuse it, they will go to Hell. Your question opens up the debate about Calvinism.
‘Your Saviour doesn't care about these as their names will not be found in the Book of Life as they did not have the chance to be reborn. Don't try to weasel out of this, it's in your inerrant scripture.’

I would not weasel out of it. I don’t feel any shame in saying that people who have not heard the Gospel MIGHT go to Hell. If God wishes them to be saved then He shall make Himself known to them (through missionaries perhaps). And you miss a very important point. It is not because these people don’t accept Christ that send them to Hell. It is because of their sin. They have sinned against go and so deserve Hell. And we are all sinners. It is just some people have learned the cure for sin.

However, there is some Biblical evidence (from the inerrant scripture) that suggests people who have never heard of Christ but respond to God’s general revelation (Romans 1 and 2)will be saved. For example, if a person has never heard of Jesus but worships God as s/he knows Him might get to Heaven (Acts 10 suggests this-the Roman centurion was not a Christian at the start of the chapter).

‘no matter how virtuous’

Nobody is good. Name me one person who has never broken any of the 10 commandments (apart from Jesus).

‘the mentally-ill and handicapped, the children too young to understand,’

Well you don’t read your Bible much do you? For your remark on children I say this:

‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.’ Matthew 18:3-5

‘“Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”’ Luke 18:16-17

Children will go to Heaven. God will not judge people by actions they have not committed and small children cannot do anything (knowingly) wrong. Perhaps you would like to find a verse that condemns children to Hell? I can find many more verses for my position.

As for the mentally ill, this is probably the same as children. In 2 Samuel, David’s child dies. But he is comforted by the fact that he will see his child in Heaven. This suggests again that children will go to Heaven (as they cannot choose to accept or refuse Christ). I would guess (based on the teachings of Jesus) that the mentally ill and handicapped will also go to Heaven as they could not accept or deny Christ. I could be wrong but God is a righteous judge and will His judgements will be correct.

‘those you failed to convince shall be condemned to eternal torment.’

That is correct. If they refuse to repent then they will go to Hell.

‘And this is the response of a merciful and loving God to His creation huh?’

He died on the cross for all these people. He endured suffering beyond belief for these people and all He asks is that they repent and believe. He has made is so easy to get into Heaven and that shows He is a loving God. But He is also a righteous God and if you do not repent your sins, you will be punished for them. That is only fair.
‘If so you are welcome to Him. I, for one, shall have no truck with such an evil force.’

Do as you want. Your ‘evil force god’ does not exist so you are denying an idol rather than the Lord God. But if you disagree with God (and you WILL be wrong) then you can make your petty stand but go to Hell for your sins one day.

Now please read this as I spent a lot of time writing it. You would not like to be considered rude as well as arrogant.

Amen to that Good News (and thank you for saving me the bother of a long response). I am weary of responding these militant atheist at all now. They are clearly signed up for the devil and trying to explain to them the things of God is unlikely to change anything. I think this may well be a case where we can apply Matt 7:6 - let us give not that which is holy unto the dogs!

Matholwch,

You are of an entirely different religion to me, and as such, you have no place lecturing Christians about their faith. Scripture is very clear that the unsaved are going to hellfire, which is a form of 'holding centre', where they will be held in the fire until Judgement Day, when God separates the sheep from the goats. Then all the unsaved shall be tossed into the lake of fire, along with satan and his demons and hell itself. What a truly horrendous place to be. You shall be fully conscious there, and will be in physical and mental agony forever and ever.

Believe me, it is not a thing to be mocked. Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26).

<>

First off, I'm not an atheist.

Secondly, you have replied to none of my questions, so how can you be weary of having done so?

Thirdly, you come across as a very spoilt child who thinks they never have to explain themself.

<>

Jesus would shame you for saying such a thing - and you know it.


az

Sam

The thing I dislike the most is when these anti-Christian militants smugly declare their 'proof' that Christianity is wrong. And it is usually the same 'proof' that they all use and Christians have answered hundreds of times.

Good News,

Unlike yourself, I respect all people's choice of beliefs.

And I have never said that Christianity - per se - is wrong.

It is a belief that many people find helps them to live good and caring lives.

It's when people turn Christianity into something that I'm sure Christ would not recognise - the elitism, the intolerance and hatred of others, the fear of simply being alive and all that entails . . . I take umbrage.

Anti-Christian militants? In your dreams.

Unless you mean some people are anti those who have become Christian militants, like yourselves.

You are not a Christian.

You are someone who uses Christ and his teachings to suit yourself.

May God have mercy on your soul.


az

azahar

I was not actually talking about you. I was talking about the wiccan who started trying to prove Christianity wrong.

'Unlike yourself, I respect all people's choice of beliefs'

A bold statement. I do respect people's views. I grew up in an agnostic household and I still respect my family's views. However, I still believe they are wrong and I am allowed to have that view. And you should respect it.

'the elitism, the intolerance and hatred of others'

Care to tell me when I have preached hatred?

'You are not a Christian.'

A bold statement based on very little. Do you want me to boast about my charity actions or something? Do you want me to say that I volunteered to be a leader at my local cub group because they needed a leader? Do you want me to say that I save my 20Ps in a jar until I have enough and go round my nearest town handing them out to the homeless? Do you want to know that my household donates money every month to Save the Children and Cancer Research? Do you want to know that I did a sponsered silence a few months ago and raised a lot of money for Save the Children? Do you want me to keep going on? You really make me sick that you can judge a person on so little and come to that bold a conclusion. And I am ashamed that I had to give a list there-you should not boast about charity.

'May God have mercy on your soul.'

And yours to.

<>

That all people who are not 'born again' are going to suffer eternally in Hell.

That these people have no chance of being saved of their own accord - that they must be (somehow) CHOSEN by God. As you apparently have been chosen. By what criteria? What made YOU chosen, special, etc? Above all others?

That you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.

How do you live with yourself? How do you dare blaspheme the name of Christ by calling yourself a Christian?

I personally think you're full of sh*t in terms of your personal belief system, but hey, to each their own. What I don't like is how you think - even for a nanosecond - that you are somehow . . . what? . . . special? Chosen by God?

I wonder why you need such an overblown opinion of yourself in order to get by.


az

Az,

You yourself are clearly not saved, or you would not be stating such apostate nonsense as this. All who have been born again in the spirit of God KNOW that God does not lie. God says in scripture that He chose us from the outset of creation, that all whom he has chosen WILL come to him, and that those who have not been born again will be burnt in the fires of hell. That is the scriptural truth. Repent now. Ye must be born again.

'That all people who are not 'born again' are going to suffer eternally in Hell.'

That is not hatred. That is just the Bible. That is like saying I preach hatred when I say that people who walk in front of trains will die.

'that these people have no chance of being saved of their own accord - that they must be (somehow) CHOSEN by God.'

That is Calvinim. All Presbyterians believe in it as well as a lot of other Protestants (and some Catholic-Augustine for one). I am not too sure on that issue though.

'By what criteria?'

Well, if it is true then God chooses. There is no criteria. He has mercy on whom he has mercy.

'What made YOU chosen, special, etc?'

Nothing. God just had mercy on me as He did with all other Christians.

'Above all others?'

Why don't you ask a Calvinist? I am not too sure on the issue so you shouldn't ask me. But the Bible says that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy (Romans 9:15).

‘That you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong.’

I don’t believe that and have never said it before in my life. I believe the Bible is the right and if you contradict it, you are wrong. And I fully accept that sometimes my interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

‘How do you live with yourself? How do you dare blaspheme the name of Christ by calling yourself a Christian?’

Because I have been saved. And I find it rather offensive that you have started to personally attack me simply because I am an evangelical Christian.

‘that you are somehow . . . what? . . . special? Chosen by God?’

That is Calvinism as opposed to Arminianism. All Christians believe that you cannot come to God unless drawn by the Holy Spirit. And God has chosen who He will draw to Him. All Christians believe that. The issue is, does God choose people based on His knowledge that they will respond to Him. Or does He choose people simply because He decided to have mercy on them. I sit on the fence on this issue. But even if I was a Calvinist, it would mean that I have been chosen by God (along with the other 2 billion Christians). That is Calvinism and has been around for hundreds of years. Why don’t you learn some basic Christian theology before attacking me personally?

‘I wonder why you need such an overblown opinion of yourself in order to get by.’

I don’t. In fact, Calvinism humbles people. It teaches that man is so morally depraved that he cannot know God unless God wills it. God is soverign and man is weak.

<>

Really?

Based on WHAT criteria?

I happen to know that Jesus understands that all people who live by his Golden Rule are his children and that he loves us all.

<>

He chose YOU more than 2,000 years ago???

<>

This has nothing to do with Jesus. You are talking about his Father, and presume to know His will. I rather doubt a God of that immensity will be pleased about a mere mortal pretending to KNOW His will and then boasting about it.

Sounds like if anyone is about to be smited (smote? smitten?) it will be you and your ilk who use God as a means of pretending to have some sort of earthly superiority over others.

Frankly, if you haven't managed to fool us, it's doubtful that you've put one over on the Almighty. I personally wouldn't like to be you come Judgement Day.

May God have mercy on your soul.


az

Hi Grand Sam

First off, what wiccan? I haven't seen one in here and I do know most of them on h2g2.

It is nice of you to describe the evil of your God for me...

"God says in scripture that He chose us from the outset of creation, that all whom he has chosen WILL come to him, and that those who have not been born again will be burnt in the fires of hell."

We had this from your predecessor, Justin the Preacher. What you are saying is that your merciful God chose one group of people to save, from the very beginning. Which means that this omniescent, omnipotent and omnipresent deity deliberately chose to condemn a large proportion of humanity to eternal torment. We never even stood a chance. Thanks God.

Tell me that it is the act of a moral being to A) infect an entire race with sin just because of the curiosity of two of them, and B) choose to condemn 90% of that race to eternal torment no matter what they do.

And you wonder why your sad religion is declining faster than shares in Enron.

Bleassings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\

Hi Good News

Interesting, of the quotes you provided only one said the naughty would go to Hell....

"He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the UNBELIEVING, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who PRACTICE MAGIC ARTS, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Revelation 21:7-8

Add to that the unsaved children, mentally-ill etc...hang on you have an excuse for that too.... or do you?

"It is not because these people don’t accept Christ that send them to Hell. It is because of their sin. "

Excuse me? Who invented Sin? If your God is triple-O (Omniescent, Omnipresent and Omnipotent) only He could. According to every evangelical I have met so far we are born in original sin. Re-read that GN: BORN in original sin. Why? Why would a merciful and loving deity inflict sin on every newborn babe? Why would He make a condition of their salvation that they accept Him? That's precisely like me strapping explosives to you and saying "worship me or else - poof!". Except, of course, your God makes the agony of the explosion last for eternity.... doesn't sound very clever that does it, unless you like extortionists.

"Nobody is good. Name me one person who has never broken any of the 10 commandments (apart from Jesus)."

Every child under two years old, that must be about 400 million at present and climbing. Name me one saved christian who obeys all the laws in Leviticus and Judges? Hypocritical huh?

Not one of your quotes on children indicates for an instant that when the judgement comes that children shall be exempt. Saved? Pick up a harp and go up. Unsaved? Into the lake of fire. Please find a real quote that describes the fate of the virtuous unsaved as being anything but eternal torment.

"That is correct. If they refuse to repent then they will go to Hell."

So you admit that if you are an awful preacher and cannot convince another intelligent, rational, adult being of your case about salvation, it is they that must suffer eternal torment. Hope your conscience will be clear as you see all the ones you failed go into the lake of fire.

Can you not see the desperate injustice of this whole sin and salvation situation? I could live my whole life, unwittingly, in a virtuous state where I never once break one of your God's laws but, because I had never heard of him, be condemned to eternal torment.

I look forward to putting this case to your God on judgement day, and if He just shrugs and admits He's a bit of a b*st*rd, I shall spit in His eye and happily take my place by Sulphur Outfall No.4.

I hope your unjustified smugness lasts your eternity.

Blessings,
Matholwch the Apostate /|\

<>

Or to put it another way, he is of an entirely different faith to you, and as such, you have no place lecturing Druids about their faith.

Noggin

I honestly despair. I know that Religious Education is going to the dogs these days but I thought people were still taught basic Christianity. I mean, look at this for evidence:

' Name me one saved christian who obeys all the laws in Leviticus and Judges?'

No understanding of what it means to be saved, a Christian, the New Testament or even the difference between civil and ceremonial laws.

'Who invented Sin? If your God is triple-O (Omniescent, Omnipresent and Omnipotent) only He could.'

No understanding of free-will or the Fall.


'Add to that the unsaved children, mentally-ill etc...hang on you have an excuse for that too.... or do you?'

Shows that you refuse to read the Bible and probably didn't read what I wrote.


'Please find a real quote that describes the fate of the virtuous unsaved as being anything but eternal torment.'

I never said it would not be eternal torment. All I said was the torment would be worse for some than others. And I gave you a Bible quote. You probably will ignore it but you seem to be in a habit of ignoring the Bible.

'So you admit that if you are an awful preacher and cannot convince another intelligent, rational, adult being of your case about salvation, it is they that must suffer eternal torment. '

It is not the preacher who is living in sin. If a man hears that he must repent but refuses then he will go to Hell. And I don't say that with pleasure. At the moment, most of my friends will go to Hell and I don't particularly like that idea. But whether I like it or not is not the point.

'I could live my whole life, unwittingly, in a virtuous state where I never once break one of your God's laws but, because I had never heard of him, be condemned to eternal torment.'

You have heard of Him so you have no excuse. Good News told you. And I gave you some Biblical evidence that you might go to Heaven if you had never heard of Him but were 'virtuous'. But if that is not true and you care that much, become a missionary. These people don't stand preaching on street corners for the fun of it-they are trying to save you.

' hope your unjustified smugness lasts your eternity.'

I am not smug. I'm just preaching the Bible. And I hope that one day you will realise the reality of Hell and repent before it is too late.

Now you can thing whatever you want of me. You can call me ignorant, nasty, evil or whatever. But I am only preaching the Gospel-that you must repent your sins and turn to Christ. Now YOU can be saved. The Lord Jesus died to make it possible. His blood is enough to cleanse ALL sins away. Please, study the subject. Read your Bible. Read Christian apologetics. At least make sure you die knowing that you researched the issue. This is one issue that you cannot afford to lazy or ignorant on. After all, you will be dead for a long time. Make sure you go to the right place.

God Bless.

<>

I'm not going to argue the truth or otherwise of this, for the moment, but I am genuinely interested to find out from Good News or Sam whether they actually understand why a lot of people have a *moral* problem with the idea that God chooses the saved beforehand, and that those he has not chosen are condemned (by God's act of choosing, not their own)) to eternal torment, and why any entity claiming to be loving would condemn anyone in this way?

I also have a problem with the sort of claims to knowledge being made here, and what sort of distinction is being made between being absolutely certain of something, but being mistaken, and actually knowing something, when the only evidence you can point to is your own conviction? Do you understand why (even if you turn out to be right) the argument doesn't work?

Noggin

Noggin

You ask me my views on Calvinism. I will say again that I sit on the fence on this issue. There is a lot of Biblical support for it but I am still not sure.

'they actually understand why a lot of people have a *moral* problem with the idea that God chooses the saved beforehand, and that those he has not chosen are condemned (by God's act of choosing, not their own)) to eternal torment, and why any entity claiming to be loving would condemn anyone in this way?'

Yes I do understand that problem. But what you say there is called 'double predestination'. It is a heretical view taught only by Hyper-Calvinists (often called corrupted Calvinism). This is that God chooses, before creation, to create some people to go Heaven and some to go Hell. In other words, He leads some to Heaven and some to eternal damnation. Calvinism is not like this. In pure Calvinism, God created the human race and He knew that it will become sinful. So He chooses to save some people. He does not lead anybody into sin but will help pull some out of sin. This might seem unfair but then, who are we to argue? It is us who sin. We send ourselves to Hell by our sins. God merely chooses to save some from their sins.

Here is a comparison. Imagine you are walking down the road and 10 beggars come up to you. You decide just go give money to the first two and walk on. Now are you being evil? No. You could have helped none of them but you decided to help two and that is still an act of kindness. It is the same with God. We are all in sin but God had decided to save some of us. Is that evil? No. For the people who He does not save, nothing has changed for them. But for the people that He decided to show mercy on (which He did not need to do) they have eternal life and bliss.

I hope this helped and God Bless.