h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Read it before it gets modded:

"A Thanksgiving Prayer
by William S. Burroughs

Thanks for the wild turkey and
the passenger pigeons, destined
to be sh!t out through wholesome
American guts.

Thanks for a continent to despoil
and poison.

Thanks for Indians to provide a
modicum of challenge and
danger.

Thanks for vast herds of bison to
kill and skin leaving the
carcasses to rot.

Thanks for bounties on wolves
and coyotes.

Thanks for the American dream,
To vulgarize and to falsify until
the bare lies shine through.

Thanks for the KKK.

For n****r-killin' lawmen,
feelin' their notches.


For decent church-goin' women,
with their mean, pinched, bitter,
evil faces.

Thanks for "Kill a Queer for
Christ" stickers.

Thanks for laboratory AIDS.

Thanks for Prohibition and the
war against drugs.

Thanks for a country where
nobody's allowed to mind their
own business.

Thanks for a nation of finks.

Yes, thanks for all the
memories - all right, let's see
your arms!

You always were a headache and
you always were a bore.

Thanks for the last and greatest
betrayal of the last and greatest
of human dreams."

Oooh... I hope that doesn't get mod-ed.

The evidence is strong that the majority of the American public are stupid, blind, conditioned puppets. And we have Lentilla to thank for it.

Sorry Len but ES is just too funny sometimes.

Well Lentilla *what* do you have to say for your self turning the entire nation, millions of people into blind, stupid, conditioned puppets? Cant you find anything more productive to do with your spare time than addling the minds and undermining the freedom of the entire nation and by extension the whole world?

Bad Lentilla, naughty Lentilla.


On a more serious note.

Who said a woman President had to be a role model for you Saturnine. Maybe a president who wasnt from the usual mould of middle aged white guy with greying temples would be a more important role model for the reast of the world. Throught out the world I can think of six elected female heads of state or political leaders. Some countries have never had one. To deny a glass ceiling in this respect is ignoring what is completly obvious. I dont expect everyone to agree with me but do you really believe that. only a handful of women have ever had talents equal to these roles while there has been a conveyor line of men seen as fit for the job?

Women and other have been held back for so long that I think its time we decided to make steps to accelerate the process of getting some sort of equality. As a testament to us all that women are capable. Good for you if you already know and understand that women are the equal of men, but take a look around the world and their are a lot of places and people where people think and behave in a way that is completly contradictory to that.

Only A do job X.
Group B never do job X.
Therefore only A can do and B cant do job X.

Thats the kind of thinking that affirmitive action is meant to overturn, but it doesnot mean putting people who are not capable in to certain jobs it means giving people the chance where we can see their chances are clearly restricted.

I think affirmative action is a terrible thing too. We should not have to be helping people overcome adversity but there in it what should we do leave it to the level playing feild theory?

one love

I once read in a book, the title of which and the author shall remain, for the time being, nameless, that the glass ceiling is mostely built by women. The theory went something along the lines of...

Women are conditioned by society to have things done for them, men hold the door for them, men carry their bags for them, men buy them flowers and pay for meals. Men on the otherhand are conditioned to accept rejection, they get it all the time from women and so they know that in order to get anywhere they need to beg, grovel, crawl and generally brown-nose. Also more men are willing to sacrifice their helth and life outside work in order to get on in the work place. There was also a rather witty analogy about an aircraft hanger and two rows of senior management bent over with their pants down. this went on to say some thing about how by the time the woman has finished complaining about discrimination and the glass ceiling the man is already 3/4 of the way up the line, having not only kissed evry set of buttocks so far, but having also dellicately placed a business card between them.

Of course this only works with women. Other than in politics, and the workplace, and even in the workplace it is shifting towards the middle, the balance of power has gradually shifted in modern times, and most of the time it is either fairly even or the woman is in control. Personally I blame the abolition of the scold's bridle

"Sorry Len but ES is just too funny sometimes.

Well Lentilla *what* do you have to say for your self turning the entire nation, millions of people into blind, stupid, conditioned puppets?"

I thought this might happen and I'm not surprised it happened to you, blickybadger. (Your comprehension sometimes leaves something to be desired.)

Though perhaps I should've made it more clear and for that I apologise.

Read my sentence again. I meant that we have Lentilla to thank for the *evidence*, not for the circumstance.

That's brilliant, zoomer...

Oh my, eggs, if I may call you that... I do hope you're joking, (or think you are...)
<>
In what universe has any of the above been true after about 1910, and outside of the USA, and within the upper classes at that? I know both men and women who work hard, and who don't expect either to have things done for them *or* to have to brown-nose to get anywhere! The main milieu for that kind of life such as you describe, is in fact, the upper classes - I've never had a man hold a door for me who was under 70, and it's always embarassing - I can open a door with greater ease, than can a pensioner, no disrespect to old people...

Della, I'm not brilliant, William Burroughs is.

The best time to live was the 1890s in the US I believe. If you had antibiotics and lots of money.....

Of course one could say the same thing about today if you had *other* things....and lots of money.

*note to all : my screen name is spelt S-A-T-U-R-N-I-N-E*

Ferretbadger, you said : >>>"but what happens when *because* of their colour, gender or whatever they are unable to gain the relevent experince or knowledge. What if there is a system in place which favours the majority group to the extent where talented people from minorities just dont get the same opportunities to do well simply because of thier minority status?"<<<

That happens. Smart people get around it (I have). I'm not saying it's right. What I am saying, is that flipping it over, and discriminating against the Average Joe just for being Average, is just as bad. It provides too many people with an outlet for hate, as well as just being as discriminating as the wrong you were trying to right. I can see why it happens - I just think in the long term, it doesn't benefit anyone.

Think about it. How would you feel if you were African, Filipino, Japanese, female, gay, South African even...and you were given a job based on those attributes, rather than the sixteen years of hard slog experience you had to endure in order to make sure you got through the interview? It's patronising and facile, and I hate it. The more people that start focusing on the person, rather than the boxes they can put them in, the quicker we beat societies bit.

Also: >>>"I'll will give you an example in education it is well known that people from upper middle class backgrounds will perform better at school than someone of equal (sometimes greater) intelligence from a very poor background. I think there is an argument that in a fair society that kind of thing can be taken into account when allocating opportunities. Personally I am lucky... white male and from a relativly well off background. So the deck was stacked in my favour; just because "Fate" does not deal you the same hand should you not get a chance?"<<<

Oh, I know. I grew up and lived on the poverty line. I also know that the right people favour intelligence (which is accessible by everyone, if they want it), than childhood finances. Everyone can make it - if they want to. It's not about fate, or luck, or destiny. It's about how hard you work, and how you funnel your way through life. It's also a little about how much you want out of life. Maybe I am lucky in that I don't want too much.

Firstly della, call me TB, everyone (well not everyone, but most people) else does.

Secondly, if you were to read the first part of my post you would see that I didn't come up with the idea, and just for the record the book it came from is not the most serious of texts. However it is still a fairly valid point in the UK, and I assume the US where the author of the book lives, as I see women in their teens upwards who expect men to do a lot for them, I also see women who get really offended if a man offers to help them, I dunno why if a woman offered to carry my stuff I'd let her. However I also see women from a third category, who accept help, drinks etc from people of either gender, but don't expect it and will make similar offers to people. These are the ones I see complain about sexual discrimination the least. The first two either bring it upon them selves, or often see it where it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that sexual discrimination doesn't exist, because it still does, but not to the extent to which it did, and not to an extent which makes it the huge problem it once was. Oh and if you want to go far in industry you need one of three things to be true, you need to know someone, you need to be exceptionaly talented/lucky or you need to brown-nose.

The only instance of blatant sexual discrimination I ever saw, which was instigated by an individual and was not institutionolised, was when, working in a primary school I saw a girl hit a boy. The boy reciprocated, and of the two only the boy was reprimanded by the teacher, and that was because he hit a girl. I explained to the boy's parents exactly what had happened, the teacher only told them he was in trouble because he hit a girl, and the mother went mental at the teacher and threatened to file a complaint of sexual discrimination against her.

Oh and just so as you know, one of my pet peeves is when a woman, or member of a minority group, expects special treatment, because of being the above, and then starts complaining about discrimination if they don't then get everything which men, or members of the majority group, get.

and yes I was joking about the skold bridle.

Empty -

> So you're saying that, in certain circumstances, it's not possible for a president to be impeached unless that president (and his party) agrees to it?

If the circumstances include a majority of the party in the House and Senate, and that party's candidate as president, then yes.

> So what you’re saying is that it’s possible for a government in the US to be so firmly entrenched in power that, regardless of what criminal acts they may perform, they can not be removed.

All I'm saying is that I haven't figured out a way yet. If Bush were elected again for another four years, and we had another majority of Republicans in the House and Senate, then I'd say we need some international intervention, because it will be very difficult to get the Republicans to agree to remove their boy-toy. If Bush goes against the party line and pisses off the Republicans, then we're in business. He's already made some unwise moves, like blaming the CIA for his decision to go to Iraq.

> There’s a word for that. A word that you would not hesitate to apply to any other nation that was in this circumstance. Dictatorship.

You forget that 50% (approximately) of Americans are Republicans. They voted in the candidates that they felt would best represent their interests. Name me one dictator that has a full 50% approval rating from his subjects. Bush Jr. doesn't enforce his authority with weapons - there is no military presence forcing us to obey the president. It's not a dictatorship. It's a democratic republic that was constructed with the President acting as a figurehead. Over the years, the presidents have made various power grabs, until the office of President became an extremely important position. Now we need to rewrite certain parts of the Constitution so that the President, even with a majority of the House and Senate backing him, cannot abuse his power.

> Most human beings are not American and are, therefore, capable of independant (sp) thought.

Empty, you're spouting the party line again. Comments like that make me think that you're not capable of independent thought. If you think about it, Americans are quite capable of thinking for themselves. America is a mecca for artists, movie-makers, actors, musicians, scientists, writers... Where else can you get a grant from the government for painting with elephant doo? I think you just throw those sorts of comments in to see who gets all hot and bothered. I hope you don't really believe all the prejudiced comments you've posted on this thread! If so, you're a sorry individual.

I do get your argument S*A*U*R*N*I*N*E.

However it is just an argument, what has actually happened is that for everyone one of the last 20 years black players have made up over 20% of the professional footballers in the English leagues. Yet today in the top flight there are no black managers.

Women make up over 50% of the population here yet they have never made up fifty percent of our MPs or cabinet members and only one PM ever.

This sort of discrimination goes on not just in sport and polititcs but in educationa and work too. By your example this is just a case of people not being smart enough to break through the glass ceiling. I realy dont think thats how it is.

It's late here blicky, so I'll respond simply and get my butt off to bed.

Have you ever thought it might be something else rather than the rather basic examples you give of black/female? Culture, personal preference (who do YOU know that wants to be an MP - people have always told me I should be a politician, but frankly, I have better things to do.), higher levels of intelligence, social trends : all play a part in making those kinds of decisions about life.

It's usually the geekier types that revert to politics, and most kids grow out of wanting to be football players when they grow up. You could have used better examples - institutional racism in the policing network, the issue of maternity leave for both women and men, the fact that most people think the Chinese are nothing but takeaways and maths geniuses in the UK etc etc

If you want everyone to assimilate to a white man's culture, and play out a white man's lifestyle...then hell, go ahead. I prefer people have the opportunity to make their own decisions, and the smart ones realise that there are little boundaries out there once the stupid herd are realised as what they are : the stupid herd.

I'm learning a few things about race in Canada. It's all about diversity people, not assimilation.

But hey. I've got it all worked out, and I'll be fine. I think I said somewhere else that maybe others aren't so fortunate as to see the world the way I do.

First of all, disenfranchisement, whether that be economic, the result of war, or what have you, affects women the most profoundly (negatively). Then children, then men.

Optimism as to whether or not people can achieve if they just try is, well, naive. The disadvantages of poor health, poor education, violent and uncertain contexts, and lack of access to the appropriate services to alleviate the above cannot be overcome for the vast majority of people living in those circumstances. The idea is not to celebrate the odd fellow or squeezes an incredible life of opportunity for himself out of his hopeless situation - it's about making sure every human truly has equal access from birth to the resources necessary to ensure that an individual can take care of himself and his family, to make informed decisions to truly move her life in the direction she wants it to take, and to have the ability to pursue these things unimpeded. If middle-class white men have to bear a large burden as we force ourselves to evolve, then so be it. Growing pains hurt because so many parts of the body have to give.

Saturnine (have I got it right?)

"I also know that the right people favour intelligence (which is accessible by everyone, if they want it), than childhood finances"

Do you really think that is correct? I am going to assume that you live in Britain. If your experince is anything like mine then you would see that IMO opportunity here is all about "Who" you know rather than "What" you know. As far as I am aware equally qualified people in Britain can earn wildly disparate saleries based on their gender or BME status. How is that fair?

I agree that when you are the person passed over due to affermative action the injustice is probably horrible. However I think that a greater injustice occurs in our society when we allow the status quo to continue unchallanged.

For the record check out the statistic for what Women and Black male graduates earn on average compared to their white male counterparts.

Before ES jumps in and says that Bush got less than 50% of the popular vote, let me point out that he was at 50% within the margin of error of the election. And of course, it's silly to talk about popular vote since its the electoral college that matters.

Would Castro get a 50% approval rating do you think? On one hand Cuba is overrun with tourists and some Cubans try to escape by boat into Flordia. On the other hand he still seems genuinely popular, and he was the leader of a movement liberating them from a very corrupt dictatorship.

As for affirmitive action, well honestly I don't like it that much as a concept, but I think its possible it might be the best course at the moment. I think its more important to address the issues that make it harder for some people to attain certain things however, and to work on spotting genuine talent.

Now generally I think Nietzsche was a very bitter, impressionable and in many ways immature person, but there is certainly something in the idea of the "will to power". If you have talent and drive then it will take people will similar amounts of those to stop you from getting you where you want.

For the record, as Hoovooloo had pointed out on occasion, women are not a minority. Men are a minority, women are a majority.

Like I say good for you if your fine Sat, but there are alot of people impeded from making the best of themselves

As La Oiseau de Nyss - Left-field Lucy points out there are many in the (basic and hopefully clear) examples I pointed out as well as many others whose opportunities are unfairly restricted.

If you want everyone to assimilate to a white man's culture, and play out a white man's lifestyle...then hell, go ahead.

Ofcourse thats not my point, but you do get close to it. you see it is a white mans culture because it is ultimately run by in the main white men who have control over decisions that effect everyone (including hiring and firing).

I prefer people have the opportunity to make their own decisions,

Good for you Sat, so do I, but I also *know* that a too often that just isnt how things happen because of the thinking I posted earlier.
Only A do job X.
Group B never do job X.
Therefore only A can do and B cant do job X.

This thinking is perpetuated by both groups A AND B, after generations group B will start to think more and more that they simply are not cut out for job X when infact it is more the case that job X has been ringfenced for and made more suitable for group A so that group B stands very little chance even if they are smart and hard working as a group or as individuals. Though some do break through ringfences or glass ceilings they are very rare in comparisson to their representation in the overall population.

the smart ones realise that there are little boundaries out there once the stupid herd are realised as what they are : the stupid herd.

Think your starting to wonder onto ES territory there calling masses of people you havent met stupid. I prefer to think of them of people who are ill informed or feel they are waisting their time looking into or trying to challenge the forces that are for the status quo.

Even though I obviously hold a different veiw to you all the above Im prpepared to debate with you but,

most kids grow out of wanting to be football players when they grow up.

if the standard scale of correctness was between the Q key on your keyboard this being absolute fact and the P key being completely and utterly wrong your above statement would be so far off the scale it would reside about three or four yards outside the known universe.

one love

"For the record, as Hoovooloo had pointed out on occasion, women are not a minority. Men are a minority, women are a majority."

There might be more of them than there are men, but the waord 'majority' in this context does not refer to numbers, but rather it refers to power. In Suoth Africa during the aparthied years the blacks were an ethnic minority, despite outnumbering the whites. Also the age of majority is the age at which you are legaly entitled to vote.