h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I think Len is right Sat, sure the person should be suitably qualified, but a good way of inspiring women *and* black people would be to see someone other than the stereotype grey templed white man up there.

Nice to meet you all here in this conversation forum.

I don´t have much time to make a stand here in the forum. So i will just answer to what i was questioned about, and discuss what i was able to read about your statements.

I am from Portugal, and i like the kind of view papers and general people have here. That is because we, us a country, can´t do much as a big stand against anyother bigger country than us. So we tend to have a side point of view of almost everything.

About war in Iraq, i can´t say U.S. had any more imposed moral than Portugal, because we lent our airforce bases to U.S. army. But now thateverything it´s done, i mean the initial invasion and the first fight are finished, we even helped in reconstructing buildings and in security matters we lent police force.

Of course there are a lot of polititians ilusions spechess about the true reason for th invasion. Here in europe i believe one very said reason is, and i see it as a reason polititians try to make people forget, that the petrol in Iraq used to be comercialized as a Petro-euro, but now U.S. invaded Iraq, it is restored to an old known trade coin of Iraq: Petro-american-dollar.

For me there are a lot of questions and answers. Were the reason economic, obscure reasons, time to make a stand against leadrs based in opression ???????

But that has practly nothing to do with the U.S. americans. As i said i believe U.S. nowdays has an image for the world that their polititians lead a country, and that the U.S. citizens let them continue to work out what to do.

U.S. leaders are more like an elite group, a group of money powerfull leaders, or ambitious leaders that rule a vast deal of people, i see a comparison to the lost Roman empire:

The ceasers, who were choosen by their family, money, or status, used to say: "give bread and circus to non atentious people and they will be happy, and let be lead. And don´t give capcity of thinking to them or time to reflexion, bacause a non ignorant and knowledge people will be difficult to lead"

Kandarian

Hello, kandarian.
I had heard about the business with the Euro and the dollar... Very interesting.

||| Ok...Preface and warning... this will be a long and reactionary post!!! |||




To Empty Sky (et al)...

This is a personal rebuttal to you ,and to your general tone of anti-american rhetoric over the last several months worth of posts, from an "American".

Given: You hate America.
Given: You hold every American responsible for the actions taken by "America".
Given: Therefore, You hate Americans!!!

Given: I am an American.
Given: I do not speak for every other American
Given: I'm about to speak to you!!!

Given: From the above givens, you hate me...
Given: I don't give a if you do...
Given: Neither do my other 30 million compatriots!!!


Now... for the discussion.... Hey, here's a shocker!!!

I don't disagree with you on some of the points you've made!


However I DO disagree with you!!!!

You want to assume that all Americans follow their leader. The truth is most don't.

You think that the United States is a "Democracy"... It isn't! It is a Democratic Republic! (look it up again)

You think that the world should be a fair place... It's not!

The "United States of America" is based on the writings on two pieces of paper and the ideas of the men who wrote them. The pieces of paper are the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution (with Amendments!!!)

The men who wrote these documents did so KNOWING the consequences of their actions! They also knew that they were fallible. Therefore, they left room for changes later. The "American" constitutional system has been called "A Great Experiment"! It is exactly that!

Hey, guess what? It sometimes goes wrong.
But most of the time it goes right!!!

Americans LOVE their freedom!!!
Americans FIGHT for their freedom!!!
Americans will NEVER stop doing so!!!

Now, here comes the fun part.

You hate "Americans"...

But who are "Americans"?

They are people....

They are people who define themselves!...

They define themselves by whatever criteria they want....

THAT is what makes an "American"...Self Identity!!!


You try to make an argument that "Americans" are "bad" / "wrong" / "evil" / "whatever"...
But you don't see that we lead the world!!!
And, by that, I don't mean by our military or our money or by our government's meddling in the affairs of others, but by our people and our Ideas with a capital "I"!!!

We ARE on your telly!

We ARE on your movie screens!

We ARE in your history books!

We ARE in your stores!

We ARE in your homes!

WE ARE IN EVERY THING YOU BUY, SELL, READ, WRITE, THINK, WANT, DREAM OF, LUST FOR AND DESIRE!

Whether you want us there or not.

Get used to us. Because, whether you like us or not, we are NOT going away.

Hey, and while we are at it, realise this: YOU aren't that different from US!

YOU could be an "American"... WE would accept you... WE would LIKE you!

As much as you 'BITCH' about "America", If YOU were an 'American', YOU would have every right to do so!!!!!!


Now... As far as what our president does, has done or will do, I CAN NOT control that as much as you'd like me to. I 'personally' believe that my country has been highjacked by a corrupt regime that is making the world a WORSE place to live in. Our president's father 'personally' installed dictatorships around this world (some of which both he and his son have had to 'personally' dismantle), that everyone will agree should never have been. I believe that our current president would like to rewrite the constitution to reflect his 'personal' religious beliefs! I also believe that the history of the United States' policies on foreign affairs has been "sketchy" at best. 'Personally' my own opinions of most of my country's current policies run counter to its actions.

Does this mean I've done nothing? Does this mean I CAN do nothing? NO!

I AM trying to change things.. I want the US to be a shining example of Freedom, of Liberty, of what is best about the Human race.

But,even if I did 'personally' correct all the ills of my country, you, Empty Sky, would just find some gross generality to say that I am 'personally' evil.

Well spoken.

I do not hate U.S. (America is continent not one country)

If you lead a world not by money, politics or military power, why U.S. needs to FIGHT their freedom for?

If you rule a world by television, history books, products, and many other things, and if you consider the ideals they transmite are so perfect, have you ever thought why there are so many people, even U.S., don´t like them?

I think people shouldn´t think in terms of nationality, but of world community. Maybe that´s a little bit of E.U. ideals in the last frase, but i believe also in good examples of freedom, and what is best to human and OTHER species races, and they should be of commom sense and their not just U.S. ideals. My country ( or better said: many people in my country) that is very small and with a very little number of people has all those ideals also.

You have a point about history. U.S. were of the first to make a big stand for Democracy, and to be a democratic republic. And in the time forward, from the start of independence, U.S. were a country with the luck to have a big space to expand. You are descendents of many cultures, and nowdays even continue as the biggest mix of cultures, and with good relations between them.

Now it is a time for external opposition, if there are places were exists opression or bad treatment because of abuse of power, to a certain point i believe there should exist external opposition to that.
Etical problems like the problem of external intervention is not for now to discuss.

I beleive i lost a bit of discussion sense, sorry obout that. But i will say for last: you do care of what other people think, because you actually answered and expressed your feelings about it. And you and more than your 30 million compatriots ( i think U.S. has much more than 30 million people?) do care of the consequences of your leaders. Maybe they are stil not enough to change a bad leader.

One more last thing: What if a candidates campaign for presidency or anyother politic place were not fully paid by the candidates? why is there not a limit to money expenditure to it? Doing so , everyone wouldn´t be equal if runing to a politic place?

kandarian

"I do not hate U.S. (America is continent not one country)"

yup, for ages I was typing US citizens and the US, instead of Americans and America, because I knew we weren't talking about Canadians, but in the end I gave up as I think most people know what is meant.

“An impeachment takes a majority vote from the House and Senate. We have a Republican majority in the House and Senate. The chances of the Republicans voting to impeach one of their own is about as great, say, as the chance that monkeys will fly out of my rectum.”

Lentilla.

So you're saying that, in certain circumstances, it's not possible for a president to be impeached unless that president (and his party) agrees to it? It’s like a criminal commits a crime but can’t be arrested unless he, himself, agrees to it.

So what you’re saying is that it’s possible for a government in the US to be so firmly entrenched in power that, regardless of what criminal acts they may perform, they can not be removed.

If a government gets itself into a situation of enjoying a majority in the House and Senate, it can act with impunity at least until the end of its four year term.

The absolute worst consequence a political party can suffer, under these circumstances, is political oblivion for four years.

How dangerous is it to appoint an administration and give them complete impunity at least until the next election?

There’s a word for that. A word that you would not hesitate to apply to any other nation that was in this circumstance.

Dictatorship.

And this is the kind of participatory democracy that America seeks to inflict on the rest of the world at gunpoint.

"America is continent not one country"

Wrong. The continents are North America, South America etc.

'America' is the entire region - not a continent.

However the country that is the USA has been popularly shortened to 'America'. No other country has. So, although this is not strictly correct, it is not incorrect.

"I want the US to be a shining example of Freedom, of Liberty, of what is best about the Human race."

The thing you're unaware of, Count Zero, it that you have only a vague idea of what Freedom and Liberty mean.

There are two kinds of people who vociferously tout "freedom and liberty"

1) Those who use those words as code, really meaning impunity for the strong at the expense of the weak. (ie the US leadership.)

2) The brainless puppets of the above who wave their little plastic flags, loudly proclaim God Bless America and swallow anything they're told. (ie the majority of the American public.)

And only the truly stupid can believe that any of this can be described as "what is best about the Human race."

blicky, Lentilla...

Positive discrimination is an extremely extremely bad idea. It's not employing (example only) an individual on whether they can do their job, but because they are meant to be a "role model" to others of their colour or gender (what a crock of !) ; it also encourages white racists to become even more disenfranchised and have an actual *point* behind their facile ignorance.

People should get jobs based on their experience and their knowledge. Not on their skin colour, or their genitalia, or because they are good "role models" for whatever minority group they come from.

blicky - I find your opinions on others cultures and races to be patronising. To begin with, there are other colours besides black, and other minorities besides women...

As a white woman, I am not inspired by other white women. I am inspired by those who are intelligent, graceful, daring, literate, beautiful, handsome, kind and honest.

Think about that.

Count Zero - it's that kind of attitude that makes me momentarily forget the good side of your country, and makes me want to side with Empty Sky.

Empty Sky - Now you must have known I wasn't going to let you get away with this.

>>"There are two kinds of people who vociferously tout "freedom and liberty"

1) Those who use those words as code, really meaning impunity for the strong at the expense of the weak. (ie the US leadership.)

2) The brainless puppets of the above who wave their little plastic flags, loudly proclaim God Bless America and swallow anything they're told. (ie the majority of the American public.)"<<

1. All white Western leaders of the modern world have always used language like that. Heck, so did the Communists (Lenin : "Bread! Peace! Land!") Contrary to the Bible, and the Christian God, the meek shall never inherit the earth; as America has demonstrated. They just won't destroy it.

2. Being that 99% of people swallow what they are told, and that indeed you do, because you spout the exact same words that I have heard others on the extreme left spout, that's just a fact of human psychology. Very few people think independantly, as the ability to think is based upon information entering the brain, and information travels via other people. You just didn't settle for the first round of information, whilst I didn't settle for the first, nor the second. But we are all sheep, we are all clones. It's how we survive.

Hello Saturnine.

1. I agree. But the fact that it's always been that way, doesn't make it right.

2. I'm afraid that's a little too cynical. Yes, the majority of Americans (although it's not as high as 99%) unquestioningly swallow what they're told and that's because they're conditioned form birth to be blindly patriotic and xenophobic.

But there's another possibility that you don't seem to have thought of. How about giving the human race a little credit and accepting that sometimes people hold an opinion because it's correct, based on the truth.

Most human beings are not American and are, therefore, capable of independant thought.

"People should get jobs based on their experience and their knowledge. Not on their skin colour, or their genitalia, or because they are good "role models" for whatever minority group they come from."

O.K. Saturine but what happens when *because* of their colour, gender or whatever they are unable to gain the relevent experince or knowledge. What if there is a system in place which favours the majority group to the extent where talented people from minorities just dont get the same opportunities to do well simply because of thier minority status?

Should we (for instance) say oh well it is unfair to people in the majority if we try to do something about this so we will just leave the in-equity in place?

I'll will give you an example in education it is well known that people from upper middle class backgrounds will perform better at school than someone of equal (sometimes greater) intelligence from a very poor background. I think there is an argument that in a fair society that kind of thing can be taken into account when allocating opportunities. Personally I am lucky... white male and from a relativly well off background. So the deck was stacked in my favour; just because "Fate" does not deal you the same hand should you not get a chance?

"Yes, the majority of Americans (although it's not as high as 99%) unquestioningly swallow what they're told and that's because they're conditioned form birth to be blindly patriotic and xenophobic. "

Out of interest ES how many Americans do you know?

I only ask this because you seem to be quite an authority on what the *majority* of americans are like. I rather suspect that you are basing that statement on predjudice and racism than any rational assesment of what Americans are like.

"I rather suspect that you are basing that statement on predjudice and racism than any rational assesment of what Americans are like."

Ferrettbadger, I would be happy to be proven wrong. But there's strong evidence for what I'm saying.

Dubya is still happily in power (as an interesting contrast, there are calls on Tony Blair to resign and Blair, although complicit, is less guilty of the atrocity that is the invasion of Iraq). Even those Amricans who claim to be non-supporters of Dubya refuse to believe there's anything worong that the next election won't fix. They simply refuse to believe that it's possible for anything really evil to come out of America, because they are conditioned to believe that Americans are superior - now THAT'S racism.

The evidence is strong that the majority of the American public are stupid, blind, conditioned puppets. And we have Lentilla to thank for it.

Where's your (or anyone else's) proof to the contrary.

The mechanic of the US system have already been explained to you ES... there is nothing that the democrat voters in America can do apart from voting Bush out of office short of breaking the law.

Now I am not particularly familiar with the NZ parliamentary system. So can you please explain what mechanisms ordinary NZ people can use to remove a government between elections? I know in Britain there is nothing we can do... if a government wants to stay in power and it has the support of its MPs then it will reamain entrenched until it looses. I always supposed that was the way it worked in most places.

Saturnine... Sorry about that. As I said, it was a reactionary post. And I was mostly reacting to ES's insistance on using gross generalities and sweeping assumptions about me as an American. Of course I know that nothing I can say will change ES's opinions or thinking skills so maybe I should have said nothing. And to be honest, I was feeling a bit tired and emotional.

As a wise man once said "Never wrestle with a pig, you both get muddy and the pig likes it!"

There is a kind of fishing where you drag lines with bait behind the boat, and then just drive around, slowly. That seems to be what ES is doing here.

http://www.mit.edu/~lahr/hootoo.htm

Hello

It seems to me that the vast majority of people who makes critics against the U.S. is because it bases his or her opinion in the actions of the politics or in another point of view, in what it sees in the television, or other kind of media information.

Some would say we live times of "mediocracy", the media information types are what rules a lot, nowdays, of people minds, ideals.

I read a lot of coments of "americans" here in this forum who defende themselves reasonably. I am sorry , if i make any big unpleasent comentary about U.S.. But, as i have read a lot of that, many non-americans really see U.S. now not just as a place of good ideals but with some kind of arrogance and indiference by the rest of the world. And because of the participation of americans here in this forum, i say not all americans are seen as "evil" or powerless to change their countries leaders.

I have met a couple of americans and one of the things i felt, and many people see it to, is that nowdays U.S. politic system is like something they would like to change ( many i have spoken to want it to change and many ideas they have for new solutions) but they don´t know how to do it, or simply give the impression they accept it or are not capable of doing anything. Is more like the impression of indiference for the world aroud.

That last thing i mentioned seems to be the term of question : How could we change a bad decision of a politic leader, before the consequences happen?