h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Whisky, forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions here, but are you, in fact, just having a moan about First World Problems? "I sometimes get slightly inconvenienced by cyclists."

Whisky -

Firstly, I think you are talking about a specific case, with fully integrated sets of lights.

My short cycle commute goes through 4 sets of traffic lights and 2 pedestrian crossings. The traffic lights are no more than a minute apart and regulate cross roads. They are not linked but rather phased to the expected volumes of traffic from each direction. So position/timing at one set does not affect position/timing at the others.

Secondly, It is entirely possible, in heavy traffic, if I am staying in line, for me to have to stop twice when the lights at certain points turn red. Instead of stopping, I can continue through to the front of the queue.

In this situation I have saved 1 cycle of the lights in time. Not only that, for the cars who were far enough back in the queue to not go through will arrive at the lights quicker and proceed through them quicker without me to hold them up. Therefore, they save time on that section. If they catch me up again and I slow them down, then really they've lost nothing.

Thirdly, "but most drivers will wait patiently till they can get past safely." my set of anecdotes disagrees with yours.

One thing I learned during my brief period of having enough money to afford driving lessons is that most car drivers are selfish and impatient.

"Firstly, I think you are talking about a specific case, with fully integrated sets of lights."

Yes I am unfortunately, which makes the cyclists in question all the more ruddy selfish...

The lights are set for a speed of approximately 40kmh/25 mph (about 10 kmh below the speed limit) and the road in question has at least a dozen of the things, over a 2-3 mile run. Any cyclist capable of doing that speed over a sustained run not only has my admiration but I'm also quite happy to sit behind them all day.

Loosing out on a couple of the lights because I can't get safely past a cyclist who's aware of their speed isn't a problem either - the sensible ones actually make sure they're slow away from the lights to let cars get past on the junction itself where the road is wider and there are no parked cars.


It's the selfish so-and-sos that _continually_ hold up traffic that get me.

Continually? Don't they get tired?

Seriously though, unless these cyclists are wilfully straying into the middle of the lane all the time you're actually just moaning for no good reason. The stuff stated by sprout, swl and Hoo vastly outweighs having to go slower sometimes on one bit of road.

If it's really that much of a problem leave the house ten minutes earlier.

So basically you're saying that a car driver should respect their fellow road users - not put them in danger and not worry about being held up... But a cyclist has the god given right to hold up other traffic completely needlessly without even the benefit of saving themselves time...

"But a cyclist has the god given right to hold up other traffic completely needlessly without even the benefit of saving themselves time..."

Actually, they do.
So do car drivers - especially the over 60s on sunday mornings...

Yeah, that's totally what I'm saying.

'Cause, you know, car drivers being inconvenienced a bit is SO much worse than cyclists being potentially killed.

Sorry, that was unnecessary.

But I genuinely cannot see what these cyclists are doing that's so bad. If they're staying in the middle of the lane between each traffic light then sure, get annoyed but if they're just preventing the scenarios already stated earlier in the thread and immediately getting over to the side once they start moving then just suck it up and deal with it.

Just an additional point. I agree partly with Hoo that cyclists jumping red lights is not clever. For one it is poor psychology - you get exactly the same reaction he described - and secondly it can be dangerous.

The only ones I sometimes jump are where there is a road entering from the far side only, so it doesn't make any difference to the entering car driver whether there is a cyclist there or not - plenty of space for both of us.

sprout

"But I genuinely cannot see what these cyclists are doing that's so bad."

Let me spell it out for you...

3 mile long road a dozen or so lights at junctions... The only safe place to overtake a cyclist is at the junction where there's no traffic parked up on the side of the road.


Ignoring the very small number of cyclists who can ride at a sufficiently high speed to keep up with the speed of the lights - the vast majority of cyclists are going to catch each and every light at red.

Another point to consider - if you've ever driven a car behind a cyclist you'll be well aware that it's a _very_ bad move to try and overtake a cyclist during the one or two seconds after they've set off... Cyclists tend to wobble at low speeds...


There are two possibilities for the cyclist...

1) Ride at their normal speed and take their turn at the lights... Two or three cars will be able to safely overtake them at each of the junctions. They sit in the middle of the lane in the queue to stop cars trying to squeeze past them and they pull over towards the side of the road as they cross the junction...

(As they're starting off from within the queue of traffic, by the time the get to the junction they're stable enough and predictable enough to be overtaken safely)

This means that by the end of the road some 20-30 cars will have overtaken them safely at the various junctions and will already be home... The cyclist will arrive at his destination at the fastest speed he could have gotten there without running any lights - and everybody's happy.

2) Ride at their normal speed but push to the front at each set of lights and sit in the middle of the lane.

What happens? Nobody can _safely_ get past the guy because by the time he's gotten up to speed, is stable enough for a car driver to safely overtake him and has moved across to the side of the road the junction's already closed up and there are parked cars on both sides.

He still gets to the end of the road at the same time, but the thirty cars are now still behind him.

And if a car does manage to find a safe overtaking spot between the lights, in 99% of cases, because he's been slower behind the bike rider he misses the next green light and is overtaken once again by the same cyclist.

So, the only _safe_ option for the car driver is to slow to the speed of the cyclist - which in itself is fair enough - I've no problem with that...

The problem I have is that the second method doesn't benefit the cyclist as far as I can see - regardless of which method they use, they hit every single light at red - so they get to their destination at the same time.

So why do it?

>>Unfortunately, one of the problems over here is the free bike scheme (I think you've got something similar but smaller in London)


No, the bikes are the same size.

Right so it's not indignance at being mildly inconvenience but indignance at someone else doing something that you don't think is of any use to them (because, obviously, the reasons stated by sproud, swl and Hoo aren't good enough).

Dude. Chill. If you're not feeling personally inconvenience by it just let them get on with it.

Wouldn't that (option 2) tend to build up traffic jams? Or at least jammy traffic?

A sane society wouldn't allow people to be in charge of vehicles which demonstrably kill thousands every year.

A sane society wouldn't put disparate vehicles with weights varying from 2kg to 7500kg travelling at speeds between 5 & 60mph on the same bit of potholed tarmac.

It sounds like Whisky is talking about a quite specific piece of road generating a fairly unusual problem. Irritating if you have to deal with it on a regular basis though.

As a unicyclist myselves, even I am appalled by the behaviour of some cyclists.
Usually the wurst culprits are the 'Urban warrior' type, all clad in black lycra, and unwilling to use cycle paths or lanes because it is beneath them.
I saw one of these cycling crusaders the others day ride right into the back of a car because he was abusing a car behind him

Did make me chuck as I cycled past him trying to explain his insurance position to the driver


Watch how the other urban cyclists behave AFTER the incident!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3LufERhos

I was once crossing a road at a pedestrian crossing. I had a small daughter with me so we waited until the green man was lit up before we started to cross. A cyclist had to swerve to avoid us and *she* was swearing at *us* for getting in her way.

She hadn't seen the red light, because it was a one-way street and she was cycling the wrong way along it.

So, not keen on cyclists when I'm a pedestrian. When I'm driving, well, it could be my husband on that cycle, so I'm really careful. I always leave the 'cycles' strip at the front of the traffic light queue free for cyclists to use. And I never see any using it

Mol

As a keen cyclist who avoids roads wherever possible, I'd be too scared to move back into the traffic after I'd moved over at the junctions. From a cyclist's POV, drivers are all insane maniacs ready to kill me on a whim. I got overtaken once on a 30 yard stretch of road with a 10mph speed limit, which then disappeared downhill round a tight corner. Thank god I live near a cycle path.