h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Orcus:

>>He barely set foot here during his lifetime

I have a possibly mis-remembered inkling that there was an English king who *never* visited, preferring to remain in Savoy or wherever where the real action was.

Anyone?

It always amuses me that the Plantagenets are thought of as successful English Kings because they snaffled part of France, rather than opportunist French nobility who snaffled all of England.

Fog in Channel. Continent Isolated.

Finland was another member of the Axis that did not persecute it's Jewish population some of whom fought against the Red Army - two even won the Iron Cross. It took in 500 jewish refugees and dispite intense pressure from Nazi Germany only extraditied eight.
Others were extradited to the Soviet Union after Finland effectively changed sides but not on grounds of race or religion.

The Plantagenets claim to the English throne was through Henry II's mother Matilda (Henry I's daughter) who should have been England's first queen but was surplanted by her cousin Stephen - so in part they were a successful Norse family who snaffled up large parts of France followed by England, Wales and Ireland

The name is interesting it comes from Planta Genista - the Latin for the broom plant - which their troops used as a recognition badge.

Oof. I think Finland would quibble slightly about being called a member of the Axis. From W***pedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers#Finland

From their point of view, they were fighting a Soviet invasion. Al apiece with the Hobsbawm idea I mentioned of interlocking conflicts.

Granted they received considerable German support.

But then... last time I dared to mention this I was leapt on as a Commie stooge and one person even posted on an external army site where people called me mental...but what the hell. Here goes. It's true.

Britain and France also trained an expeditionary force to be sent to Finland. Although the conflict receded before this arrived, some British irregulars were sent to fight alongside the Germans. (Cabinet minutes discussed the possibility of this small, advance force being sent). The embassy in Helsinki asked them to provide information on their German comrades, which suggests that they did arrive and did fight. There are also Hansards references of speeches against '...this winter madness.'

The fog of war, etc. etc.

This may interest you from wiki

Finnish immigrants in the United States and Canada returned home, and many volunteers (one of them future actor Christopher Lee) traveled to Finland to join Finland's forces: 1,010 Danes (including Christian Frederik von Schalburg, a captain in Christian X of Denmark's bodyguard and later commander of the Free Corps Denmark, a volunteer unit created by Nazi Germany in Denmark during World War II), 8,700 Swedes, about 1,000 Estonians, 725 Norwegians, 372 Ingrians, 346 Finnish expatriates, 366 Hungarians[1], more than 20 Latvians and 190 volunteers of other nationalities made it to Finland before the war was over. Foreign correspondents in Helsinki wrote, and even greatly exaggerated, reports of Finnish ingenuity and successes in combat

Britain also sent nurses and doctors and I think the expeditionary force you referred to ended up in the disastrous Norwegian campaign which prompted Chamberlain's demise (so back to the OP via the crusades, the Balkans and the Baltic }

>I have a possibly mis-remembered inkling that there was an English king who *never* visited, preferring to remain in Savoy or wherever where the real action was.<

Don't think so - sounds like Richard to me - although he did visit - not least for his coronation - which involved the Pogrom you mentioned earlier.

You may be thinking of his wife who was certainly an English queen who never visited...

There may have been Norse rulers in pre-Norman times who never came here I guess but I don't really know too much about the Cnut type era..

There a are references to the Winter War volunteers throughout Scandiwegian Noir crime fiction, including Stieg Larsson.

Mind you - all the writers are Commies.

Incidentally I know they liked their warring an all - but if you were given a choice of living in rainy London in the conqueror's draughty castles or a Chateux in the idylic Dordogne, which would you choose?

Look - Finnish Winter War, Nov 39 - Mar 40

Russia and Germany are allies. Britain is at war with Germany. Plans are mooted in Britain to support Finland against Russia on the basis "the enemy of my enemy". But, because no de facto state of war exists between Britain and Russia, it is thought wise to keep any support low key, hence the call for volunteers.

However, by the time the British get organised, the short war is over.

Note - No British fought for the Finns. No Germans fought for the Finns (why would the Germans fight their allies?)

Along comes the Norway campaign in April organised by Churchill which is another muddle and ends in fiasco.

A year later, the Continuation War begins 3 days after Germany attacks Russia and with the help of German troops in Finland. British nationals in Helsinki are asked to note German troop movements etc. No British fought for the Finns against the Russians because Britain was now allies with Russia.

Clear?

Now, when you floated this crap before Ed, you couldn't provide any proof. Instead, I contacted Finnish & British Army sources who said your claims were false (ok, some were a little more florid ) You then claimed to have read it in a book. I then produced a personal rebuttal from the author of the book, Simon Sebag Montefiore. Simon categorically stated he wrote no such thing, he'd never heard of such a thing and he found the whole notion implausible.

So, given your theory that the British Army fought with the Germans against the Russians in the Finnish Winter War has been so thoroughly and comprehensively debunked, unless you can put up verifiable proof to back your claim it can only be deduced you are either an idiot or a liar.

Which is it?

Och, swl. You know fine well that what you call your quote British Army Sources unquote were a bunch of ex-squaddies you contacted on some dubious messageboard. Their cogent historical analysis included, iirc, 'He must be pissed' and 'Sounds like a Commie' (admittedly...spot on there). Another Researcher (not me!) caught you out by googling. Remember? .

Whatever the detail of whether the British nationals asked by the embassy to spy on Germans were in Helsinki or at the front...where the Germans were...and whether it was the Winter War or Continuation War...we do know that Britain and France trained an expeditionary force. When it was realised that they weren't going to be ready in time, plans were made for a smaller detachment. We know this is minuted. You've seen the links.

Did any British irregulars actually fight? I hold my hands up and say this piece of the jigsaw is not in place. They would be about the only European nationality not represented amongst the ragtag volunteers, though.

For all you think I'm saying something completely, implausibly potty or for all you assume I'm making a political point - I'm not.

>> I then produced a personal rebuttal from the author of the book, Simon Sebag Montefiore. Simon categorically stated he wrote no such thing, he'd never heard of such a thing and he found the whole notion implausible.


Yes - you did get me on that. *But to be fair...I only ever said that the source *might* have been Sebag-Montefiore. This because I'd seen the claims repeated and recalled having read his book...although I said I wasn't certain that this was where I'd seen the claims. I was 100& open about this.

No - I was wrong. It must have been either a) another book, b) my imagination or c) a scurrilous lie. You have me fair and square on that detail.

As I said at the time.

For anybody interested, the thread's at http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/brunel/F19585?thread=6893239&skip=0&show=20 Did your "contacts at the Finnish Military University" ever come through? Incidentally, it would have been nice to have Godfrey Millington Hogg contribute to the conversation. He was one of the 13 British volunteers who went to Finland. He trained as an air-gunner with the Finnish Air Force but the Winter War was over before he or any other Brits got to fight. "In 1940, I volunteered to go to Finland, because the country was looking for volunteers. I was interviewed, asked about my military service, etc. I was then sent to a building in Soho on Greek St. and I spent about one month there. I left on the first boat. They only took three quarters of us that signed up. The police took the rest away as they were criminals trying to escape England. I was attached to the Air Force and an infantry unit of the Army in Finland. In 1941, Germany sent troops into Finland and we were sent to Sweden despite German authorities' plans to lock up all foreigners." http://66.241.252.164/digital-archive/profile.cfm?collectionid=714&cnf=wwII All this is a far, far cry from your initial claim that <> http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/brunel/F19585?thread=6893239&skip=19&show=1 Granted, your claim in this thread is a much watered-down version of the original, but it's still balls.

Ah, yes. Great thread that, wasn't it. Just loooooved the way you leapt on a tangential remark and tried to go to town on me for being a Stalinist apologist. Despite all I said to the contrary.

Showed you up as a liar though

Swl, attack the argument not the person.

I'm struggling to recollect

You are a liar

He is an apologist for Stalinism?




Ooops, sorry, forgot me coat.

Why? Doesn't seem to be the accepted way of doing things around here.

Mrs Z

The lie was which was disproved comprehensively over about 1000 posts two years ago.

Here it is resurfacing again in a watered-down guise.