h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

If a man talks in a forest and his missus is not around to hear him,
is he still wrong?

Effers, I am more concerned with lies than the truth. I do agree that the truth is complex, nuanced and multi-layered.

I'm more bothered, as I said, by the little white lies

Yes - I've done the insurance on the car
No - I don't mind if you leave wet towels on the floor
Yes - I made the dessert myself
No - we came straight here but the traffic was aweful
Yes - that was absolutely delicions
No - I can't find your clean trouser
Yes - I've looked
No - I didn't forget to buy loo-roll, they just didn't have any at the petrol station

These are no-big-deal things, so why are they worth lying about?

Ben

(What the is happening to my typing skills?)

If I go out shopping, come back home to cook, notice I forgot the eggs, go back to buy them, come back and carry on cooking, I would be likely to describe my afternoon activities as: "Went out shopping and started cooking". I see that more of a simplification ; the actual point being that I went shopping and cooked, not that the shopping happened twice.

In my line of work (mathematics) I also tend to brush some technicalities under the carpet when explaining things in seminars. If you go over all the little details you tend to lose overview. Although, in fairness, I will usually warn the audience that I might be sketchy and technicalities get smoothed a little.

That's fine Toybox, but if your significant other says "I thought you said you'd filled up with petrol, how come you've used quarter of a tank" would you say "oh, I went to the shops twice" or would you say "You can't have filled it up completely" or "I dunno"?

Ah, if it was relevant, I'd say I had to go to the shop twice. The purpose was simplification of insignificant details, not treachery.

"You can't have filled it up completely" seems a baffling thing to say.

I think one of the issues here is that despite how we might think we decide what to say, and how we act, in reality most of what we do is on autopilot.

We learn about how to get along over the course of our lives in a large part on the basis of reactions we get. If that experience teaches us that in the main it is easier for all concerned in some circumstances to tell little white lies than it is to always tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth then that sets our "default" behaviour.

I work in a call centre, it is a massive open plan office with hundreds of people in. I think it would be pretty much impossible to work in that kind of an environment for any length of time operating on a always tell the exact truth in your interactions with colleagues. Similarly I find it hard to believe that anyone does not have at least one friend or former partner who doesn't/didn't massively over react to minor sort of situations making sometimes managing the truth a necessary skill.

FB

Toybox, I was making up examples on the fly, so they may have been bad examples.

FB - Who said anything about the whole truth?

I find I struggle if what I've been told is UNtrue. But when it comes to "the whole truth" when would one stop....?

My problem is if I say "have you done this" or "do you like that" and get "yes" when te truth is "no".

I'm a big girl. As Lanzababy said I can cope with the truth.

Ben

PS - I do feel that I ought to say that this not a sly dig at Z. Or indeed a stonkingly obvious dig at Z. Not any kind of dig at Z.

Ah, I guess my example comes under 'not the whole truth' too then.

Sure. My problem's not moral, it's cognitive. I don't know what to do with a lie. I can't process it.

It's all very complicated. My last partner had a tendency to annoying white lies..but she fully admitted to being a bit cowardly about things sometimes..and it got so that 90% of the time I guessed..it almost became an affectionate game between us..and she truly had a heart of gold and was hugely intelligent..I can forgive a lot when you get those plusses..

But yeah if you only always believe or disbelieve that makes for difficult dancing.

Paranoia and trust, lies and truth, uncertainty and certainty,
intolerance and tolerance are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Placebos only work because they are a way of lying to the patient, and the result of that lie can often be effective medical treatment without any chemical side-effects.

Oh it's a grey area!

I know I got very gross with R one time when he hadn't told me something important about the tyres on my car, cos he didn't want me to worry - I'd far rather be told the facts and then deal with them in my own way, I don't like information being kept from me.

But then, I'll give an approximate time which is less than totally accurate, if I think that'll get a more favourable response.

My approach is "this upsets, me, and I'm letting you know it upsets me, but I'll move on."

It is always a difficult one.

But let's say the example from the OP about the car insurance. If your Partner/Friend/Family member is on being told you haven't yet sorted it, going to gently chide you for not doing it but will be satisfied that it is going to get done as a result of the convo then telling a little white lie might seem totally inappropriate.

If on the other hand said person is going to have an utterly disproportionate volcanic over reaction, initiate a tremendous row and huff that makes both of you very unhappy for some time. Then by maybe just saying "Yes it is done" then doing it immediately might be genuinely better for all concerned.

FB

Actually, Ben Goldacre has a piece about placebos working fairly well even when you know they're placebos. There's a video of it on Pharyngula.

TRiG.

Well yes, people know placebos work. It's been scientifically proven.

Oh

Er..
Dirty washing, this is the public, I do hope you get on.

When your minor disagreements are discussed in public there is no where to hide.

BEN: it wasn't a minor disagreement

I forget what I lied about. But I am very very very scared of rows and shouting. I grew up in a home which was occassionally violent. So I will lie to avoid rows. I admit that this is silly with Ben who is not violent.

Not even when you take her away.

I've a nice line in sarcasm though...

I know exactly what you mean, Z, I'm a terrible conflict-avoider too.