h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes....

He gave the impression that the use of a taser was, in fact, pretty stupid and could indeed have triggered any bombs on the man's person.

I actually respect the police for standing by their shoot-to-kill policy in light of what's happened; it's not an easy policy to defend.

I think that's where the IPCC should be giving a better lead. I personally don't think they will prove to be up to the job. In light of the Hutton and Butler enquiries politically appointed investigative bodies have lost some credibility.

If the police are going to keep the people with them with such an extreme measure as shoot to kill, even allowing for human error, then it will have to stand up to meticulous forensic analysis by a body that the people trust to be independent. I'm afraid Mr Nick Hardwick, the IPCC chairman, at 45, just doesn't have enough bottom to give me that confidence. Reading his cv he strikes me as an ambitious careerist. He has a touch of the Tony about him.

The thing is a mate of mine who actually works for the police and can usually understand most of their actions finds it hard to understand why they shot an innocent man - dead. You should not be killed for panicing when chased by a bunch of armed guys. It sounds to be like an officer paniced which is also worrying. You don't want panicing guys carrying guns.


It's VERY worrying. The problem is that we are not used to dealing with suicide bombers - the IRA worked differently - towards the end they often warned people about bombs as it was the "oxygen of publicity" and causing distruption which were more important than killing people - killing people tends to make people unsymphathetic to your cause.

....the female commanding officer who gave go ahead for shooting of man on tube is said to be devastated, Sir Ian Blair said men involved in shooting said they genuinly believed they were stopping another terrorist attack...the shot mans family are of course devastated....the only people who will be happy are the terrorists.

.....all this just makes it less likely that police will volunteer to be armed officers....this incident was a tragic mistake....but when it is all over and the next incident of an armed bank robber just having shot someone is holding hostages we will be relying on armed officers again....when at airport waiting for my plane, I will still be glad to see armed police.

I agree it's not easy and my mate backed up the shooting of the guy with the table leg. I also find it easy to understand why the guy with the replica gun got shot - he was told to put the gun down, he didn't, he got shot, he was an idiot of Darwin Award proportions. You often can't tell a real gun from a replica and the police had to shoot the guy to be sure.

We do need an armed unit of police officers. We need police - like social workers they are often not popular and easy to demonise but perform a vital service keeping people safe. However - I find it disturbing that an innocent man is dead because of what seems like heavy handed policing - you do not need to shoot someone five or six times in the head to pacify them, someone lost their head here, and if the cops do continue with "a shoot to kill" policy - they need to be a darn sight more careful.

I live in London. I'm glad terrorists have been arrested - I'm glad they were arrested without killing them. I probably missed being on that tube that was blown between King's Cross and Russell Square by five minutes. The very same mate who expressed concern about the shooting of that Brazillian bloke WAS actually on that same train although thankfully in a different carriage to the one which blown up. I would like to think that the police are doing everything reasonably possible to keep Londoners (including me and my mates) safe - but two wrongs do not make a right - you cannot kill innocent people just in case and write it off as acceptable risk. How the heck do you think all the many reasonable, law abiding, Moslim Londoners or indeed any oridinary guy with a Middle Eastern appearence is going to feel knowing they could be gunned down just because of what the police suspect about them. One set of human rights violations do not excuse others.

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Agreed. They'll be happy because it's fostering discord about the police, and it's spreading fear .

Perhaps the officer who shot did panic; when faced with the potential that the man in front of you may well blow himself and you to bits, I would panic, too. I don't think training can compensate for that gut-wrenching fear that most of us would feel in that situation.

It was a horrible mistake, and I do feel for the officer that shot. Unfortunately, we're humans and make mistakes and wrong decisions - and ultimately Jean de Menezes made the wrong decision when he ran away. He may well have been worried about his visa having expired, and given his background his fear may be understandable; but how could the police who followed him have known all that?

But yes, I agree that if I'm getting on a plane, or if I'm anywhere where I see armed police, I'd be reassured by their presence rather than frightened by it.

>>a body that the people trust to be independent<<

I think the IPCC need to be given a chance: they haven't been around for very long for a start, so it seems a bit much to be insinuating that there'll be some sort of cover-up before they've even begun (their website is calling for any and all eyewitnesses to get in touch by the way).

It used to be policy to have the police investigate such things themselves. This is surely preferable?

I wasn't insinuating that there would be any cover up. From the interview I watched with Nick Hardwick it seemed as if he was already falling over himself to see things from the police angle.

My point was that if the IPCC is to gain credibility with the public they are going to have to demonstrate scrupulous fairness and thoroughness even if it is politically inconvenient.

I don't yet get that message but yes, maybe I shouldn't prejudge.

....I have given reasons why you might need to shoot someone as many times as the man on tube was, but it was felt to be too graphic to show....but in sumary, text books might give a certain number of times, but in reality, it does not work out that way.

....during the Iranian embassy siege a terrorist was seen running down stairs amongst hostages holding a grenade...the SAS troupers used around 30-40 rounds....text books may say use a double tap, 2 rounds, and it is over, but this is real life...they did what was deemed necessary to save life at time.


.......anybody would wish that Tassers, tranquiliser darts, plastic rounds, etc would work......but there is NO other way to stop a suicide bomber with 2 wires taped to finger tips.....I am thankful the second wave of bombs failed to detonate, but that also leaves the problem of 3 or more lunatics still running around with hate in their hearts, and the will to kill many more people.

>>Nick Hardwick<< I do know what you mean: I may have seen the same interview (C4 News?) - not likely to be given his own chatshow in the near future

Still, he's only chairing - unlike Hutton and Butler, I don't think he'll find it easy to railroad the process (if that were his intention). Too much public scrutiny, too much already in the public domain.

Yes and apologies to him he is in fact now 48. The cv I read was dated 2002. Presumably the IPCC has been around since then. I presumed it was a recent institution.

It is a recent institution - there've been calls for it for ages (ever since the Brixton riots back in the 80s), but the MacPherson Report into Stephen Lawrence's death really made it imperative.

Mr Hardwick has just been on Radio 4 critcising the police for revealing Jean Charles de Menezes asylum status and telling everyone to shut up until he has completed his enquiry. This is the sort of rush to publicity that makes me suspicious of his motives.

........we can celebrate that it now sounds that 3 of the bombers are under arrest....watching in real time on the news, even with a mobile phone comentary, we are part of a moment in history, a new reality of life in Britain.....sadly, life may never be the same again.

Sort of opposite to

'Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!

Wordsworth on 'The French Revolution'

The Houston Chronicle has an editorial today titled: "Shooting to Kill" and subtitled "Londoners, Don't Let Your Bobbies Grow Up To Be Cowboys, Which Would Compound The Terrorist Toll". It talks about the many police killings in the Houston area, and the potential problems with a "shoot to kill" policy - the mentally ill, innocent commuters who panic, ethnic minorities. It does say that "circumstances place the blame for the death of innocents squarely on the transit bombers, not on the police ..."

.......can't remember if I have already mentioned this, but I wish the failed bombers would give up their information then commit suicide.......they are too dangerous to ever release from prison.....the terorist convicted of murder in Holand a couple of days ago has said he will murder again if ever released from prison.....it sounds harsh, but I would still wish it to happen.

From the Sunday Times - clarifies some of what happened that day

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1715340,00.html

Hmmm. That does put a different slant on the affair vs. early reports. 17 Centigrade does not sound "hot", and a denim jacket seems fairly normal for a non-native. The police "warning" seems minimal, the running may be just to make the train, at least initially ...

But this paragraph is interesting:

QUOTE

Relatives mourning at de Menezes’s funeral on Friday complained that he had been “exterminated” without any chance to surrender. One sign at his funeral in his home town of Gonzaga read “Jean, martyr of British terrorism”

END QUOTE

The first sentence sounds like harsh criticism of the police. But the second is (rightfully) directed at the terrorists, IMHO.

However stupid or hotheaded our police were, they wouldn't have shot him dead if they thought he was innocent, unlike the Islamic terrorists IMO!