h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Warner, human rationality in an understandable universe only points to a logical creator if you assume a creator is a logical way to explain the existence of the universe in the first place, which is itself highly irrational... blimey, and then the whole thing disappears disturbingly up it's own bottom with a horrible squeaking sound and a pop.

Well, I missed the chance to get first response earlier, but here goes anyway...

"So... if there were no God, why on earth would anyone want to make one up?"

Why would anyone make up a god? To make the darkness less scary. To make you feel as though someone was there guarding you as you sleep. So you know it isn't just you spinning plates until you die. That there is, against all odds, a reason for your own existance.

" It does not make things easier or make more sense or provide much satisfaction as they say. It seems to me god is just a fact that exists, but why would one want to create god? It makes no sense."

Except you are thinking about it with a 21st Century mindset, where, I assume, you have access to medical care, water, food, a dry and warm place to sleep, and a pretty low risk of being killed before you wake up tomorrow. Those aren't always true, and they haven't been for a lot of history. In those circumstances, a little extra help / comfort foes a long way.

That is, of course, 'Goes a long way'.

Stupid typing fungers.

I agree, Thatprat. Gods are a way of coping with reality. They exist in the mind of the believer. Unfortunately, once you realise that, you can no longer believe that they help.

>>Gods are a way of coping with reality. They exist in the mind of the believer. Unfortunately, once you realise that, you can no longer believe that they help.<<

Of course, the Bible will tell you the converse ... it's when mankind become wealthy and content that they turn away from God Almighty with independence and pride.
"For the rich man to get to heaven, is like the camel going through the eye of a needle"
Jesus of Nazareth

<<it's when mankind become wealthy and content that they turn away from God Almighty with independence and pride.<<



cheesus!! I didn´t know it!
going to check my bank account

<<it's when mankind become wealthy and content that they turn away from God Almighty with independence and pride.<<

...and God surveys his creations with pride and knows that his work is done.

Likewise.

**

Why has warner started calling him God Almighty? A few months ago it was always Almighty God.

What exactly is it about God that is almighty?

re post 69, dudes.

>What facts contradict it? This should be good, because I am positive you cannot disprove that there is something controlling the universe. Second, you said "what one wants to believe". Lets talk about what one actually believes regardless of want. Like I said, I can't imagine why one would want to believe.<

I did not say anything that requires me to go on disprove deities controlling the universe. My comments were clearly on the difference between "choosing to believe" and "being convinced of something" and why I contend it wrong to suggest that people "chose to believe".
You assert the existence of a controller entity, it up to you offer proof. Trying to shift the burden of proof doesn't help your case.



I don't see anything else offered in this post worth repeating myself over.


Iluvatar post 70 -

"Ok, I meant why would one want to believe in a made up god. A tall tale is a great reason to make stuff up, but not to believe it."

Excluding the possibility that people could honestly but mistakenly believe in something made up by others. Or mistakenly believe that gods explains something they do not understand. Or that even the creators of the tall tale could be so stone-bonkers as to believe it's true themselves.

"Exactly why does your logic tell you it makes less sense to believe there is a god?"

There many definitions of god.
If your god is your pet I will believe it exists. I won't worship it, but I will believe that your god exists.
But if you ascribe extraordinary powers to that I will require extraordinary evidence to believe in them.

If you describe your god as being outside of material universe and existing before time and being a personal god that cares who and what we eat, then you have described a logical impossibility.

If describe gods and the creator of all reality then you have described a god that is more complex than reality itself, and that god that is redundant, as reality does not require a god to exist.


For it make sense to believe in a god, the god must be both plausibly and necessarily so. To early peoples gods seemed to have passed that barrier. Today they can't.

"Actually, I have only created a god if god does not exist."

You have created a god in you mind. You taken the word god and ascribed to it meaning. Meaning that differs from the god and gods other peoples minds.
If your god does exist, then then the gods of everyone else on this do not exist. For all these gods are different from each and ever changing.

"I can assure you, the very essence of these laws is not scribbled mathematical markings of graphite on a sheet of paper, or a series of signals in binary on metallic wiring."

Prove it. Win a Noble Prize. Your name will be remembered in perpetuity.

Excellent quote, Warner. That is close to where I was when deciding there is a God. People may have used to say, "thunder comes from god", and now they have a supposed "explanation", but all their explanation really is is a description. And as the descriptions get more detailed, they think of them more as reasons for things existing, rather than what science has always meant them to be.

Hope I made sense. It is really early in the morning...

Vip said,
"I thought about it.

There were too many bits that didn't make sense. There were too many bits that were obviously interpretations of something else, or that the meaning had been lost in translation.

I got angry that people who lived their lived horrifically but claimed to be Christians could be 'saved' in the afterlife, but those who lived good and virtuous lives but happened to believe in the wrong, or no god would be sent to hell.
When I thought about that, I also realised that hell was made up, as no loving Christian god could do that to his people; no god that I wanted to know, anyway.

I saw how religion could be used to oppress people. I watched people I knew be manipulated by their churches. I sat through sermons where preachers taught hate and intolerance in direct contradiction to Jesus' message.

Finally, I realised that I didn't need a god or a holy book to tell me right from wrong, I could learn that myself from the good people around me.

I grew up and learned to use my own deductive reasoning as opposed to relying on others"

If you thought about it wouldn't you realize hat none of these are reasons to disbelieve that God exists? I agree that they may all be quite true, but that just means some people are wrong. What else is new? Just because one aspect of some stuffy religion doesn't make sense, is not any kind of logical reason to chuck the whole idea of God.

"Except you are thinking about it with a 21st Century mindset, where, I assume, you have access to medical care, water, food, a dry and warm place to sleep, and a pretty low risk of being killed before you wake up tomorrow. Those aren't always true, and they haven't been for a lot of history. In those circumstances, a little extra help / comfort foes a long way."

But what of the fact that God does not make me "feel" safe? if one makes up a god, how on earth would it make them feel safe?? I believe there is a god, but that doesn't mean I am not going to die just like the next guy...

jack
>>If you describe your god as being outside of material universe and existing before time and being a personal god that cares who and what we eat, then you have described a logical impossibility.<<

No, it's not illogical. If God, the Most High, created the material universe, then it's logical to assume that He's NOT material.

>>If your god does exist, then then the gods of everyone else on this do not exist.<<

That just depends what you mean ... billions of people believe in the One God of Abraham. The fact that they have disagreements amongst themselves on the details, does NOT mean that God the Creator is not One ... it means that some have more accurate knowledge about God than others.
Peace

"
"I can assure you, the very essence of these laws is not scribbled mathematical markings of graphite on a sheet of paper, or a series of signals in binary on metallic wiring."

Prove it. Win a Noble Prize. Your name will be remembered in perpetuity.
"

Why should I prove something like this, if you need not prove that god does not exist? You hold that proofs are not necessary. Or is it only things which you choose to believe without proof?

At the very least, we know physical things appear to happen. What causes them to happen? surely its not some differential equation; an equation might be described differently by someone of a different language. All an equation has ever been is a logical description of the world around us. But how is it logical? where does the logic come from? We use the logic of the universe to try to explain the universe. This is impossible. We may eventually get one huge set of equations, describing everything, but that still leaves the question "where do those equations come from?"

We can then call this set of logic, matter, energy, everything we can sense or describe collectively to be god. Then god would be the word for the force behind the universe. It would not explain how "he" came to be, it is just a word. Now this god somehow was able to perpetuate a set of laws that create "reality" and "us". Who can say then that this "god" is limited to that which we have found an equation for?

This god could have some desire for us written into the laws of nature, or there could be things going on which laws cannot describe ever, who knows? I agree that the way some people describe god is a bit odd, but that doesn't mean the "Christian God" is false. It just means some christians are quite eccentric people and don't know how to describe him. It would make sense to describe him as a "him" or a "person" to most people, who would only understand such a description.

I agree, the reasons I gave are not proof that gods don't exist.

However, they are very good reasons that gods don't *matter*. People matter.

Well said Vip

<>

I know this won't get me anywhere, but what the heck? What does NOT material actually mean? To me it has no referent. Perhaps you could start by defining what you mean by material?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - "Everything that is the case constitutes the world." Ludwig Wittgenstein

You're not alone Noggin...

A42586266

Also;

>>If God, the Most High, created the material universe, then it's logical to assume that He's NOT material<<

Not it isn't. It's a complete non sequitur and a failure of imagination.

OKOKOK, now I do the advocatus diaboli...there was nothing like our universe before the Big Bang - someone take that ball and start a flame war. (Mind, all of you - this has been a lively thread without any p****ng contests, let´s keep it that way.)