h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Iluvatar said "Many people are saying you don't become an atheist, you just are one or born that way.

Wrong

I, personally think atheism is what any normal person would believe if they grew up in a religious vaccuum."

You seem to be experiencing some cognitive dissonance. Which do you believe the former or latter?

Either the concept of implicit atheism is invalid in your view and we are innately theists -- somewhat undermined by the lifelong atheists such as myself -- or we are indeed as has been noted born without the knowledge of gods and as such unable to believe in them.

In the modern age when we have answers to why there is thunder and know what the stars are there would be no need for child raised in a religious vacuum to postulate deities. Unless they had some condition, such as a psychotic disorder, perhaps.


In the real world most children are not afforded the privilege of being raised in a vacuum free of religious indoctrination before they developed and aware of the facts enough to reason for themselves.

Actually, there is no cognitive dissonance. What I am saying is that there must come a point where one makes a decision on what to believe. As a child, one thinks many things, maybe things they were born with, but not necessarily things which they have come to a conclusion on. I do not have much respect for those who say they are atheists, yet are only so because thats just how they feel they were born. Like anything, it takes thought and age to come to a conclusion.

Dear God, it's me, ~jwf~.
I don't mean to bother you but can you show me a sign?
I want to know if my reputation as a religious scrapper will suffer
if I don't rise to respond to charges of spinelessness and psychoses.
Your guidance, God, and your guidance alone will guide me.
Your friend,
~jwf~

You forgot smugness, jwf.

Whilst your waiting for Baal to help you why don't you just defend your stance on atheism and agnosticism without making straw-man arguments, appeals to middle ground that does not exist and bogus comparisons of atheism to religious artifices.

So... if there were no God, why on earth would anyone want to make one up? It does not make things easier or make more sense or provide much satisfaction as they say. It seems to me god is just a fact that exists, but why would one want to create god? It makes no sense.

Thank you, God.

~jwf~

"What I am saying is that there must come a point where one makes a decision on what to believe."

One may choose to carry on professing and behaving as if one believes in something when the facts contradict it. One may chose to remain ignorant of the facts which threaten what one wants to believe. Perhaps one could even choose to convince oneself of something they know to be absurd. But one does not choose to believe. One is either convinced it is so or one is not.

I did not chose to be an atheist. I was born an atheist as were you. Unlike so many I was never convinced to convert to theism.

"As a child, one thinks many things, maybe things they were born with, but not necessarily things which they have come to a conclusion on."

Fascinating. Care to offer an example?

"I do not have much respect for those who say they are atheists, yet are only so because thats just how they feel they were born."

Are you referring to post 5? Toybox was making the point that we are all born an implicit atheist, one can converted from that and can later de-covert back to the default position of being an atheist.

"Like anything, it takes thought and age to come to a conclusion."

Reaching a conclusion after considered thought is not the same as making a choice to believe.

"So... if there were no God, why on earth would anyone want to make one up?"

Because they wanted to explain the thunder. Because they were stone-bonkers. Or because they just liked a good tall tale.

3 perfectly plausible answer in less than 30 seconds. I'm sad that you are so impoverished of imagination that you couldn't do better yourself.

"It does not make things easier or make more sense or provide much satisfaction as they say."

No it doesn't make things make more sense. In fact it makes a lot less sense to believe in a god than not to. But hey your the one with that complexity problem.

"It seems to me god is just a fact that exists, but why would one want to create god? It makes no sense."

You have created a god. Not I. Your ideas of god are unique to you. Each believers has there own unique idea on just what god is and what it wants.
It doesn't make any sense, but is just a fact, that exists.

Oh boy.

"One may choose to carry on professing and behaving as if one believes in something when the facts contradict it. One may chose to remain ignorant of the facts which threaten what one wants to believe. Perhaps one could even choose to convince oneself of something they know to be absurd. But one does not choose to believe. One is either convinced it is so or one is not."

What facts contradict it? This should be good, because I am positive you cannot disprove that there is something controlling the universe. Second, you said "what one wants to believe". Lets talk about what one actually believes regardless of want. Like I said, I can't imagine why one would want to believe.

"I did not chose to be an atheist. I was born an atheist as were you. Unlike so many I was never convinced to convert to theism."

??? Anyone could say the same, but reverse the order of which one was born as and which one converted to. At least I argued that one is born neither until a decision is made.

"Fascinating. Care to offer an example?"

Uhhh... is it hard? did you not think anything as a child? Had reached a conclusion on life, the universe, and everything at 3 years old? I don't think something like this needs any examples, when the entire universe consists of nothing but examples for my statement.

"Are you referring to post 5? Toybox was making the point that we are all born an implicit atheist, one can converted from that and can later de-covert back to the default position of being an atheist."

Was not referring to any particular post. In fact I assumed most people on here say so for other reasons as well, so my statement therefore does not apply to them. However, if Toybox believes they were born with this and found no reason to seriously examine both sides, then yes, I would be referring to post 5. Again, I do not have any evidence that while we are born without many complex conclusions, this should be one we are born with.

"Reaching a conclusion after considered thought is not the same as making a choice to believe."

As far as I am concerned, they are the same thing. I don't consider "believe" to be a word taken lightly. "Think" is a less strict word. I can think something but still not say I absolutely believe it.

"Because they wanted to explain the thunder. Because they were stone-bonkers. Or because they just liked a good tall tale.
3 perfectly plausible answer in less than 30 seconds. I'm sad that you are so impoverished of imagination that you couldn't do better yourself."

Ok, I meant why would one want to believe in a made up god. A tall tale is a great reason to make stuff up, but not to believe it.

"In fact it makes a lot less sense to believe in a god than not to."

So this is "fact"? Exactly why does your logic tell you it makes less sense to believe there is a god? I normally would not get a reply to my posted question at this point, but we will see.

"You have created a god. Not I."

Actually, I have only created a god if god does not exist. I would love to see proof of this. It really would make my day, considering supposedly intelligent scientists don't seem to have much logic at this point. The funny thing is though, that the scientists can't even relize that science is a completely different subject, not to a different universe.

Yes you are right on that last one, that everyone seems to have a different idea of god. One could argue that the "laws" of nature ARE god. Because I can assure you, the very essence of these laws is not scribbled mathematical markings of graphite on a sheet of paper, or a series of signals in binary on metallic wiring.

Hmmm.

Things you don´t understand => some gods´ work (if good) or witchcraft (if not good).

Things you understand => Science.

What I meant in Post 5 is in the same lines as what Jack wrote in Post 61 ("there would be no need for child raised in a religious vacuum to postulate deities.") Just like babies are not born with political tendencies, say. Or, as some engineer friend of mine once put, "the default value is 0".

I posted it because I sensed an implicit assumption in Post 1, that the default position is for people to be religious.

toybox,

"default value = zero (do I read a Bielefeld math student there?)

Indeed. A child who has not yet learned to speak can adapt to any language...born into a Kluxer household, even Mother Theresa would have learned to hate.

That was pre-Bielefeld

(Actually, the origin of this saying was that the friend was at that time living in a dorm with plenty other engineering students. "The default value is zero" was the rule for their shared fridge -- if you didn't identify the food you brought as your own, it was up for grabs)

Pure Darwinism.

Oh Dawkins & co!

"You know you exist because (like us all) you can all think and you can also understand complex ideas such as science and ethical values. This makes it reasonable indeed to believe that the Universe emanates from a Logical Power who wishes humans to grow in knowledge and live in harmony with each other.

The existence of rational science itself is the best evidence of such a Power. Modern science depends upon the presumption that there is a rational explanation for everything that exists and that this explanation will be understandable to humans. A mathematical universe, understandable to humans, points to a logical creator of which our rationality is a reflection."
Rosindubh

I follow that, and endorse it!
Peace

Is there among you person who was in the past very religious and now is atheist?

Yup. *waves*

Why do you ask?

It is very interesting for me to learn how do very devout religious people become atheists?

I thought about it.

There were too many bits that didn't make sense. There were too many bits that were obviously interpretations of something else, or that the meaning had been lost in translation.

I got angry that people who lived their lived horrifically but claimed to be Christians could be 'saved' in the afterlife, but those who lived good and virtuous lives but happened to believe in the wrong, or no god would be sent to hell.
When I thought about that, I also realised that hell was made up, as no loving Christian god could do that to his people; no god that I wanted to know, anyway.

I saw how religion could be used to oppress people. I watched people I knew be manipulated by their churches. I sat through sermons where preachers taught hate and intolerance in direct contradiction to Jesus' message.

Finally, I realised that I didn't need a god or a holy book to tell me right from wrong, I could learn that myself from the good people around me.

I grew up and learned to use my own deductive reasoning as opposed to relying on others'.