h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have to say, I prefer Daveblackeye's description

Me too! With the caveat that he does not mention Ireland at all. And such wisdom is also part of what makes Great Britain great. Yea! Let's hear it for stoicism and the rule of law! What else you guys got?

~jwf~

>> Well there we are then, aren't facts wonderful? <<

Yes I think so.

But the more I think about James VI and his rustabouts of debauchery in the Castles and Pubs of Edinburgh the more I begin to wonder why he - and obviously no one since - has thought to call it Greater Britain. Or is it, as they oft say in Edinburgh, all downhill from here.

~j~

Ireland isn't in Great Britain

The raeson I used 'great' was not about the Great in 'Great Britain' as much as the 'great' in where the inventiveness, technological advances, manufacturing base, the number of brilliant scientists in the UK etc. We are now slipping into some service-based industry where intelligence is only required to work out how to clock in and out, where stupidity and sloth is worshipped and intelligence is derided and laughed at.

I don't totally disagree with what Blicky has said but other countries were trying to do *exactly the same thing as us*...but due to our inventiness, manufacturing skills, brilliant thinkers...'we' did it better.

Once we stopped trying to take over the world (we had most of it anyway) we turned the skills into making the UK better on home-soil. However, due to the various governments over the past 20years or so all that manufacturing base and skills, and education levels have slowly been eroded away...the 'great' things I was talking about...not the 'Great' things that we did better than other in Victorian times or before that were immorally when looked on them from todays sofas and plasma TV's etc.

What I'm intrigued by is it's almost standard thinking not to judge other cultures or older societies by modern standards - ie the Aztecs, Islamism, Romans etc etc. That is, it's wrong to project modern moralities retrospectively and without regard to cultural sensitivity.

But that seems to totally go out the window with what appears to be a fervent self-loathing of British history and culture in some quarters.

SWL, I was thinking just that after my last post. Maybe in 200years people will have the same feelings about why such a technologically advanced society still had people worshipping invisible friends without the context of DNA being 50 years 'old' and 'evolution' being 50years old and 'Thought For the Day' still the Today programme and STILL having no secular speakers.

on the not being great anymore there was also a bit of wrangle (or two) we got into in the first half of the 20th century which helped knacker the economy and accelerated the downfall of empire. Plus the rebuilding and paying of loans afterwards.

Plus...the Empire started fighting back. Granted our wealth was largely generated by our colonies. But we over-stretched ourselves and the cost of holding on to them started to outweigh the benefits.

This, incidentally, was also largely responsible for the ending of the slave trade by the European powers. The security costs were simply too high and the Caribbean colonies couldn't remain competitive.

>> ....the 'great' things I was talking about...not the 'Great' things that we did better ... in Victorian times or before... were when we looked on them from todays sofas and plasma TV's etc. <<

Oh you mean 'great' like in the good old days, like Beatlemania, the British Invasion, Twiggy, Led Zep, Bowie, the Pistols, the Falklands...

Yeah, you're right it all started going to crap about 20 - 30 years ago. The good news is that it's happening everywhere not just in Greater Britain. So hang on to that stoicism and rule of law and never mind anything Sting said when he was in the Police.


~jwf~

"But that seems to totally go out the window with what appears to be a fervent self-loathing of British history and culture in some quarters."

I think there's definitely some merit in the view that we should be wary about judging the past or other cultures by our standards, and always look to the prevailing beliefs and value systems of the time for an *explanation* of why a certain thing happened. But that doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't form judgements about it. For example, Kipling's words about "bearing the white man's burden" says a lot about what the British Empire thought it was about, or at least what some of them thought. In other words, entirely false notions of racial and cultural superiority, and a sense of a divine mission from God.

However, criticism of the British Empire doesn't exist in isolation. It's very much a reaction to decades of self-glorification and triumphalism which celebrated only achievements and successes and airbrushed away failures, catastrophes, and atrocities. What we need now is what I think we're starting to get - a more nuanced, informed, and balanced view of our history.

The other point about Empire that's often overlooked is that Britain didn't just export oppression and exploitation - there was plenty of it going on domestically too, especially in the factories. Child labour, long hours, dangerous work, little job security, low wages etc. It wasn't just a case of one *nation* dominating others, but one class of people within one nation.

As for when this mythical golden age was when everything was better.... when, exactly?

There was an interesting wee snippet t'other day in Liverpool. The council had planned to spend a six figure sum erecting a memorial to slavery. At the meeting to approve the spending, an Asian councillor stood up to object. She was rounded upon by a black councillor and racially abused (she said something like "My people have a word for people like you, a coconut". When challenged she replied, "How can I be racist? I'm black."). As Britain becomes increasingly diverse, we're going to see increasing numbers of people with not the slightest connection with some aspects of British history. You can see the Asian woman's point - Asians had no part in slavery so why should council tax (raised in part from Asians) be used in such a way?

More and more I think we should concentrate on who we as Britons *are* rather than what our ancestors may or may not have *been*. If Britain was "Great" in the past it's perhaps because the varying cultures on these islands worked together (willingly or not) towards a common purpose - "Empire" provided a purpose. However, there seems to be a trend for special interest groups based upon race and religion, fragmenting the country into nasty little bigotted pockets. Does it really help unify people having the "Christian Group For This", the "Muslim Group For That", the "Union Of Black Such & Such", "The Association Of Catholic Thingummies", "The Committee Of Sikh Whatevers" etc etc?

Ijndeed, SWL. The Internationale unites us one and all.

SWL

To mourn the passing of slavery?
To give something for the nazi's and racists to worship and mourn better times?
To have something to remind back people that their ancestors died on ships or put into slavery every time they pass the memorial?

I'm not saying we should forget what happened; we shouldn't but a memorial isn;t going to change anything. How about building a local youth club or something in a deprived area for black and white people to enjoy and hopefully give them something to focus on rather than standing on street corners drinking cider.



Yes, this says a lot doesn't it.

What happened to her? Has she been prosecuted or thrown off the council? It hasn't been on national news and I haven't seen it in the Daily HateMail(I'm in a hotel that has it OK!!!!)

If she has: good! Did she play the race card?
If not: why? based on previous events like this had the person been white they would be on the streets and vilified.(Quite rightly)



And the current people in Liverpool had nothing to do with it either.(See youth club above)

Leaving aside the ill-advised comments of the Liverpool councillor...it seems to me, as a native of the Peoples Republic of Merseyside myself, that a memorial to slavery is a thoroughly sound idea. Liverpool makes much of its glorious past - indeed, looking backwards is Scousers' principal fault - with its glorious Georgian and Victorian architecture from the days when it was the second city of Empire. It's fitting to take a moment to remember where its wealth came from, that the Empire was built by black people. Slavery isn't just Black History. It's *our* history.

I couldn't remember where I'd read it, so I googled -

http://www.24dash.com/news/Housing/2009-02-27-Bristol-City-Council-embroiled-in-race-row-over-councillors-coconut-jibe

Slightly different. It was Bristol and it was £750,000 earmarked for ethnic minority projects.

And here's the council meeting itself -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxMfHGLnLcE

And can I say: the way this thread has deviated from what I meant it to be is really interesting. I don't quite agree with Blicky but I can see where he is coming from.

I think every nation should think they are 'great'. One's that do seem to have an overall more positive outlook.

'What did the Romans do for us?' Well, they gave us crucifixion, mass killings in arenas, death from many invasions...what did 'we' give other countries? India: Railways, whiskey, snooker, cricket. Australia: a bunch of crims who made Australia into a 'modern' country which gave us neighbours(boo), Rolf Harris(hurrah), Sir Les Pattison(, and destroying the indigenious population. Africa: democracy, guns, railways, Yahweh based religion, dictatorships once 'we' moved out, aparthied(now gone), a weak South Africa who won't kick Zimbabwe's butt, too a greater extent a still basically stable South Africa that has produced a great education system and industry(I have worked with a South African with Indian parents who was educated in South Africa and is a brilliant engineer...whether Indians are seen as different to 'blacks' I am not sure a did not ask...anyone know?).

So, we can look at the past and just see the 'bad' things that have happened but it's happened. In wars we get the greatest technological advances. I heard on radio 4 that a dentist who was drafted for world war 1 moved facial reconstructive surgery on by 50years by 1918. The War was terrible, but people now are benefiting greatly from these advances. It happened, we can't change it, move on.

What I meant at the start of this thread is that we can see things are moronically illogical and can do something about it. We can stop these pathetic thoughts and try to make Britain 'great' again if not in name in how we do things.

Apologies about the loose apostrophe in the last post.

Edward the Bonobo

I totally agree, Ed. I remember a few years ago a black scouser poet went round Liverpool showing various carvings on buildings depicting the slavery that built the buildings.

Black people whose ancestors were slaves are alive because their ancestors were brought over here. Would they rather not have existed to allow their ancestors a free life in Africa? Would they prefer to have something 'useful' as a memorial to slavery rather than some lump of rock?

Now SWL has found the real story maybe no memorial is planned, but as a thought experiment what would a black person want in Liverpool now?
I don't no, I'm a 'middle-class' white professional in a good job! A bit like the people who might thing a memorial is a good idea rather than something useful.



Re: the Bristol story. £750,000 isn't much if used properly to give deprived people some hope and dignity. As I mentioned on another thread; black people in the US are stopping calling each other 'n*gg*r' and now call themselves 'pres'dent'. How cool is that? All it took was some bloke spending the cash to get himself president...no money spent on the black people...it just happens that bloke is black which has given black people some pride. Cool!

>>Now SWL has found the real story maybe no memorial is planned, but as a thought experiment what would a black person want in Liverpool now?

Bristol. Liverpool. Whatever.

Let's pretend it was Liverpool. OK - the argument seems to be 'Why spend the money on public art instead of (eg) youth clubs.' Yes? We can pretty much take the slavery aspect out of it - except that if you're going to spend money on art in Liverpool (or, indeed, Bristol), what better subject than slavery?

So let's assume that the issue is public art in Liverpool. n Sounds like a great idea to me! Liverpool has, in recent years, become a destination city, thus pulling in the punters and their money, precisely by investing in public art. Who'da thunk that the beach a couple of hundred yards from where I was raised would become one of the most popular tourist spots in the country? A32779182

And good for Bristol if they can manage the same.