h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

He was 'shot down'. That does happen, and although I got the treatment from Justin myself, I have seen other people get the treatment meted out to Justin, (no, I am *not* referring to myself!) These other people were nothing like him, which is what I mean about certain viewpoints being more welcome here than others.

I called (certain sections) of h2g2 very "land rights for gay whales" once. Oddly, no one answered that expression or queried it, it's a term which I got from a badge which was for sale at a street market in the 1980s.

The point is that people expressing views that go against the majority view (whatever that is!) can get totally shot down in flames, which is very scary, especially for a newbie.

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Until recently, I had always wondered that myself! That and the badger thing - BTW I came across a bloke referring to his wedding tackle as his badger(s) the other day. Is that what the badger thing is all about?

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How would something like this strike a newbie, for instance? Imagine a literate 15 year old with a high IQ and a religious belief. Is s/he going to feel welcome? Probably not...

<<. Christians are an unpleasant fact of life, like syphilis>>

Oh, and this. Lovely.

I found h2 after having read 'The Salmon Of Doubt'. I had never been in an internet forum before, so I lurked a bit, and read the complete house rules before signing in. I started on the word games thread, and after a while, some people came to my PS and left me messages, this way, I found the first friends on here. Last year, I went to England to actually meet people I chat with on here, and it was
If I had right away come across some of the researchers I still find intimidating , I wonder if I had stayed, but I was lucky and met the friendly bunch of people who like playing word games and quizzes first, before crossing paths with some others

I found it all a little daunting to begin with too , soon made a couple of friends though.

"it's become almost hostile, from about the end of 2003, the beginning of 2004."

And it never, it seems, occurs to you to wonder why. Never crosses your mind to connect the way you behave with the way you are treated. The things you say to other people affect the things other people say to you, Della.

"I know people who have left because of that."

Well, yeah. Your sister Adele, for one, seems a good deal less active these days. Your son, Apparition, doesn't post here any more, either.

Oh, hang on. Adele was a figment of your imagination, and Apparition just used another account to cover his tracks... Do you in fact know anyone who actually LEFT, and didn't come back, because of this so-called hostility? (Tip: it will be more credible if the person you mention is not directly related to you.)

"I called (certain sections) of h2g2 very "land rights for gay whales" once. Oddly, no one answered that expression or queried it"

That's not odd, Della. When a rude and ignorant person says something unfunny and stupid, most people just ignore it and hope they go away. What you have described is a perfect example of that.

"Imagine a literate 15 year old with a high IQ and a religious belief."

Oxymoron, surely?

Yeah, I know it's not. But it *should* be.

"Is s/he going to feel welcome?"

I hope not, not in that thread certainly. I don't WANT violent, prejudiced, superstitious idiots to feel welcome. I can understand why you might, obviously.

It is not my job, personally, to make people I disagree with welcome. This site is diverse enough that almost anyone should be able to find something/someone they can get on with, and equally they should be able to find someone they DISagree with.

I think having someone to DISagree with is at least as important a motivation for posting somewhere like this as agreement is. A newbie, finding the site for the first time, might be a bit reticent to post anodyne agreement with a bland statement like "I love Buffy!". They may be much more likely to weigh in with opposition to a statement like "Babylon 5 is a big pile of crap!".

Hmm.

Argument is more likely to attract newbies than agreement. Discuss.

H.

That Gentlemen's Guide and all the other removed entries I finally get to admit that I think I contributed to the cock-up by writing a crap email to the members (it was approved by someone higher than me, so they have to carry a bit of the can, but I wrote it thinking it was a good idea and I was trusted that I knew what I was doing), and I'm sorry about that. I would have handled it very differently now I'm more experienced - but of course, it was going through that sort of thing that gave me the experience, so ho hum. I do really apologise to Kerr, Lucinda and FM (ha!) for that one.

On the other hand, if 'FM' had paid attention to me in PR maybe it wouldn't have happened - the issues that worried EP later on might have been resolved there and then (although I'm speaking from memory about what had bothered me because I can't see the article anymore). I didn't even get an answer, so I didn't bother posting again, I didn't realise immediately that it was Hoo, although I did later because the same account had posted on my PS once.

Going back to the original question, I think the structure of the site can put people off posting. When you go to a message board, it's all very clear what the topics are, and where you should post because you normally get presented with a nice table with heading, and a little blurb about what's to go in that section - even the Beeb boards have a topic intro you click through - it's not so clear on h2g2 to a message board user, and I think there are more message boards out there than sites like h2g2. I don't think it's always obvious that the entries *are* the topics.

I never post on Wikipedia because I have the same problem - I'm a newbie. What do all those buttons do? What do they mean? Oh, I didn't realise clicking on that would take me to this bit, how do I get back, what's going on? Oh forget it...

I wonder how many people get that on h2g2? I don't think we should look like a message board, but I think the Front Page could perhaps have more content, especially now that they've dropped the rule that only Edited Entries or staff articles can be linked to from there. Get some more 'repeats' up there, and get some technology to pull in the conversation from those entries (wouldn't work on new ones, obviously) so that people can see where conversation is already going on. Sometimes it's easier when you're new to join in conversations, rather than having to think up something to talk about, and then wonder where you are going to put it, if anyone is going to see it or answer if they do, and what does this button do, oh forget it...

I'd have to disagree on argument being more likely to attract newbies. Making people feel welcome seems to work a lot better. Your'e not likely to really express an opinion unless you feel reasonably safe doing so..I know i'm not anyway!

I missed the Christian Voice brahughah. Link or summary, anyone?

"Land Rights for Gay Wales" - yep, I had a badge once which said "Well-meaning Guardian Readers Against the Bomb". Same thing, (though I've never been able to take the Guardian seriously since). It is likely that no-one commented Vicky(?) because it didn't merit commenting on. A lot of the most interesting things in this thread haven't actually been responded to directly, don't take it personally.

Oh, and if Della and Hoo are going to start fighting, can you go and do it in one of the other threads you both inhabit. Please?

Interesting stuff. Some people like the arguments, others don't, but - yes - the site is socially and technically intimidating.

But isn't that a side-effect of the things that make it so compulsive?

If you've left in the past, what brought you back?

B

Not having read the backlog, here's a few things I *know* have put people off in the past. I offer no opinion as to whether they are right or wrong, just that I have heard them said;

1) Difficulty of use. The exact quote - 'How the f**k do you find anything on there?'.

2) Cliques. And massively judgemental cliques at that.

3) A community that seems almost entirely self-contained and concerned only with itself.

40 SSO. What a monumental pain in the arse that is.

For my own part, i think the community is overly aggressive, judgemental and entirely too fond of it's cleverness. If I'd joined last week and found most of the community calling themselves Tony Curtis, I'd not have bothered coming back.

Agressive?

Hmmmmm....

For sure there are parts of hootoo and people on hootoo hoo are quite agressive . I should know because I frequently get involed in aggressive debate.

It also depends where you hang out, if you subscribe to "The Forum" then the likelihood is you are going to get involed in heated debate, that being the whole point. On the other hand I for one have been informed several times and even (gasp) had my opinion changed on certain subjects.

However the aggressive puffed out chest debating bits take up only a small part of hootoo. The club where I have been for the longest and where I post most to is the VSC. No we get a bit of interclub rivalry and normal football "banter" but I dont think in a couple of years I have ever seen agressiveness there.

Similarly you have the whole guide, pr ect. A lot of people will contribute to that and never get involved in to much of a hoohah.

Personally I *love* debate. Insofar as it remains civil and resonable (people are actually listening) then I dont care if it is heated and passionate, in fact I love it. That is why I like h2g2 so much.

>Anybody coming across some of the threads involving Denver might conclude that their was aggression involved - on both sides. Anybody might equally conclude the same from Hoo's hounding of JTP (and others) and more recently Hoo and Blicky's behavior towards VA as nothing short of playground bullying.

Arguements on HooToo have a tendency to become very heated and very personal very quickly. A thread that starts of reasonably, like the original 'Whats wrong with America' thread can quickly descend into vituperative back-biting and personal slanging matches. The 'Whats wrong with the French' thread was little more than that to start with. 2Bit quite openly tells all new users from the states that the site has an anti-US bias, which while I don't believe it to be true is certainly a perception that could be gained.<

I've just posted the above in the thread about the BBC, but it seems more relevant here...

Why wife can not understand why I should value the opinions of people I have never met. She thinks that people on h2g2 are not real people - the opinions expressed online and the personalities demonstrated could be a complete fake.

She has a point to a certain extent. I've met a few researchers in real life who have turned out to be quite different to the impression they give on line. For example, Recumbentman is one of the mildest, most diffident people I have ever met, but his online persona has been described as "extremely argumentative".

Ok Blues seeing as you posted in both threads I think it is more appropriote to comment here.

Put simply in the Hoo, Blick vs Della debate it takes two to tango. IMHO Della like the fuss, it simply is a flagrant lie to say that every thing happens as a result of Hoo and blicky ect (me I suppose) chasing her around a challanging her. Now I wont say that doesn't happen but like I said two to tango.

Della picks fights as well. She just likes to play victim and does it well. Is all the "anti Della" behavior appropriote? No I know I have often overstepped the mark and Blicky and Hoo have done many times.

Is it totally unwarranted, unsolicited one way bullying? Hell no. If you read everything posted and then look at cause-effect (on individual threads I mean, not other threads being brought up) then I think you would find that Della is at least half a dozen of the other...

Somebody, somewhere in this thread I think (would check, but computer is loading at speed of giant land snail) said that newbies are often put off by the fact that they post and then their post is ignored by the other contributors. Well, hell, YES, if they leap into a heated debate on politics with a "HI! I'm This is KEWL talk to me about Busted! " If you were in a pub and the complete strangers at the table next to yours were talking earnestly about deforestation or the unpcoming election or heck, even what Lou said Bert which is why Lil shouted abuse at Jay in the supermarket, you wouldn't flop into a seat at their table and start yelling 'Hi! I'm lets talk about what I want to talk about!' If you wanted to join in, say it was a friendly pub and joining in was encouraged, you'd sit near by and LISTEN for a bit (ie read the effing backlog) and then make an aposite comment and not actually expect people to pay you any mind at all. But the more remarks you made, the more you'd be part of the conversation. Newbies who then complain they are being ignored or it's cliquey do at least know they've politely tried, and their attempt to join in was reasonable and do have a right to complain. But I have seen newbies bounce into the middle of threads, yell hello, get in a fuss when we carry on with the conversation we were already having, tell us we're all boring or unfirendly and cliquey and leave in a huff. What on earth were they expecting us to do? We're still real people, we behave like real people.

As for aggressive threads (ie endless arguments on the Forum) well, I read with great enjoyment. I don't post much, admittedly, too comfy in my ring-side seat with my

When I was a newbie, I just wandered about reading for a couple of weeks, to get the feel of teh place before I said anything. It's this desire for instant attention and gratification that annoys me. Nothing worth doing is instant, is it? (With the exception of chocolate eating, and even then, someone had to make the chocolate and you had to pay for it). And when making new friends in RL you don't expect to say hello to a complete stranger and be their buddy for ever. You wait and see and even work on being pleasant to be around.

Mina:

" I finally get to admit that I think I contributed to the cock-up by writing a crap email to the members "

Massive of you to say so. I didn't blame you at all, personally. I didn't blame anyone at h2. Still don't.

"I do really apologise to Kerr, Lucinda and FM (ha!) for that one."

It was FB, actually... Frumious Bandersnatch.

"On the other hand, if 'FM' had paid attention to me in PR maybe it wouldn't have happened - the issues that worried EP later on might have been resolved there and then"

Not sure what you mean. I used the word "bastard" in a context other than to refer to illegitimacy, and accidentally replaced it after it had been moderated because when I made changes, my browser, Opera (to save time) brought back the old version rather than the moderated version. That was a minor misunderstanding though. Other than asking me to point out that you need to make sure that you're filming somewhere legal (advice I took on board), what else was there?

Here's the PR thread, and to reiterate: Frumious Bandersnatch was me.

F116054?thread=251925

H.

Regarding the Hoo, Blicky, FB andDella thing. The only reason it isn't the Hoo, Blicky, FB, Ben and Della thing is because I avoid her. She is annoying as and her willful stupidity brings me out in a rash. I decided a while ago that since I couldn't take the heat and got out of the kichen. Was that childish of me, or mature? Who actually cares? It makes my life easier.

I've just reviewed the whole of the original PR thread, Mina, and I can see nothing that anyone suggested (not you, not anyone) that would have substantially changed the *subject* of the entry, and it was eventually made clear that it was not the content, tone or language of the entry that was unacceptable, but its subject. I asked for, and received, clarification that there was NO WAY that I or anyone else could write a how-to-make-your-own-porn guide and have it remain visible on h2. That subject is simply verboten, end of story. It was at that point that I gave up.

H.

Wow, it is amazing to read about all these battles raging around h2g2. I tend to chat with my friends, give people hugs and talk about the weather.

And annoy the bejasus out of people in Peer Review, of course.

Ben - I'd suggest it was the mature response, and if everybody who found Della/JTP or anyone else that annoying just ignored them (a tactic I've adopted with several people in recent months) then the whole place might look a little nmore civilised to the casual user.