h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>> They take away and add almost nothing to an ecosystem, there is absolutely no need for their presence and the planet would be exactly the same without them - why when coming up with a theory of this Earth would you include them <<

That's along the same lines as the people who let a couple of rabbits loose in Australia. After all, what harm could a couple of rabbits do?

RF

The doughnut thing works quite well but it isn't boundless though is it? There is still an outer surface.

Imagine the ants as two dimensional. For them the surface is all there is, and it has no boundary - you never get to the edge.

Now imagine a 3D volume wrapped around an additional dimension that you can't see. This volume is "all that there is", and it is finite but without boundaries. If spacetime is wrapped in this way, then time as well as space could be finite but unbounded.

This does not, as such, rule out the possibility of a God, but it does place it outside what we can conceptualise and talk about, and renders the question irrelevant.

Noggin

Iago, the appendix is necessary to many, many animal species, that we share common ancestors with those species of animals is a point in favour of and not against evolution.

Mayflies do not spring into existance the chemicalsthat constitue their bodies has been aroundsincebefore the they live on was even formed. They are laid, hatch, feed, procreate and die as an integral part of the process we call nature.

Unusual merely refers to things *YOU* as the observer are not used to. We are not used to *looking* at sub atomic particleor thinking about them. However we are used to the normal effects they create like sodium and Chloride combining to make salt or disolving in water to make brine.

Della,

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Of course I have a problem with Christians picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they choose to believe in. You believe in God because it says he exists in the Bible, you believe in Jesus because it says so in the Bible, you believe Jesus was resurrected…because it says so in the Bible; however you are do not believe that God created the universe as it is laid down in Genesis EVEN THOUGH IT IS IN THE BIBLE.

I do find it strange that the majority of Christians(your statement not mine) do not beliebe in ‘Creation’ but do base their whole believe patterns on an equally absurd bit at the end of the Bible where Jesus gets resurrected. What is the difference in the two? What makes Creationism any less credible than his Dad creating the universe as told in the opening chapters (Damn good page turning start that one).


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No, I did not imply all Christians are Creationists. All wilfully stupid though?…

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Ditto. I know a lot of born-again Christians – total mindf*cks most of them.


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Even in a room full of people one can still feel totally alone.

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You had an imaginary friend when you were a kid you have an imaginary friend now you are an adult. BIG connection there. Still got something missing from your life?

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Wow, there might be some hope for one of your clan even now. He just needs to make that incredibly brave leap off the fence into the world of sanity and realism.

Wonder why he had an imaginary friend? Something missing from his childhood was there? An adult to look up to learn from and respect?

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Yes, it is a phase that kids go through a lot of the time due to their parents ignoring them, their social situation causing them to be isolated from others. It’s a phase that should be curtailed by filling in the gap in their lives with the real thing that should be there.

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It is a mental health problem. Someones imaginary friend to you is real to them – believing in something which is not there is a mental health problem.

>>You had an imaginary friend when you were a kid you have an imaginary friend now you are an adult. BIG connection there. Still got something missing from your life?<<

Oops, I knew there was something I was missing before I could call myself a proper born-again Christian . I never had an imaginary friend when I was little. Plus the fact that both of my parents are in fact agnostic, and I reached my faith via an Alpha course and personal experiences that I could not otherwise explain in any other manner. I did look for alternative explanations, but failed to find one that was plausible enough for me to escape the conclusion God existed.

The patterns of life creation, as far as I know, resemble those found in the fossil record so far. If the Jews were making this up, it was a blinding guess.

Not subscribing to a literal interpretation of Genesis doesn't render what is said any less important. Several books in the Bible use imagery and allegory to get their message across; Ezekiel and Revelation are two of the better known examples. The imagery used is appropriate to the time it was written and the people it was written for.

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Just wondering. *How* do you know the manner in which is was written so long ago? Given that the Holy Bible was taken quite literally for many many years . . . when did it start being 'allegorical' and isn't this simply yet another interpretation? To serve whatever purpose that modern-day Christians want their bible to serve?

I had lots of imaginary friends when I was a child - mostly they were imagined animal friends that had human characteristics and I played out many wonderful scenarios with them. Out in the woods behind my house I wasn't riding my bike, I was riding my trusty steed and we happened upon many 'adventures' together. Isn't this normal for kids? At least, those with imagination.

I was also brought up RC but this God never felt like any friend of mine, imagined or otherwise.

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I disagree with you Alfster, I think curtailing a child's natural inquisitiveness and imagination is not a healthy thing, unless a parent finds their child *only* living in a fantasy world.

Anyhow, when I got older my imaginary friends went by the wayside as I got more involved with growing up and stuff. Becoming more a part of society and the real world around me.

I don't actually see people's beliefs in their various gods as having 'imaginary friends' but I also don't think they question their beliefs as strongly as they might question other things.


az

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So what are your grounds for deciding that parts of the bible are intended allegorically, and other parts literally? Are these grounds more authorative than the bible itself, and if so, why grant any authority to the bible?

And what grounds are there for thinking that the messages that are being conveyed are truthful in some "special way" not granted to other literature?

I strongly agree with az about "imaginary friends", and the role of the imagination in children's development. The distinction betwen real and imaginary has to be learned, and those who don't play in this way are probably less likely to make the distinction later than those that do (I recall some research to this effect, but can't say how clear cut the results were). Whether those that lack a vivid imagination in childhood are more or less likely to be religious in adult life is an empirical question (one, alas, that I don't know the answer to.)

Noggin

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Ouch, Alpha Course. I have many reservations about this course especially the fact that there is no questioning about the existence of Jesus and his resurrection and his dying for our sins or indeed questioning the rest of the Bible. From the outset the lectures and talk is based around the statement of fact that Jesus existed and died for our sins. The questions people have about their doubts in the validity of the ‘facts’ in the bible in the after-lecture talks tend to be explained by saying ‘well, it says so in the Bible in must be true.

And Nicky Gumbel just appears to be a slick-haired Tony Blair Clone saleman. If you look at Gumbel his techniques and presentation are very similar to Blairs.

A friend of mine actually got thrown off the course after 3 weeks as he was starting to make the people running the course including the vicar question their believes in God and Jesus. The Vicar actually went to the Bishop of Coventry about it. Brilliant! This basically shows that the Alpha Course does not like dissent from people: go there ask questions but do not argue the logic of those answers otherwise you get thrown off the course. And Christianity is all about saving people and welcoming them into the arms of Jesus. You might even know him if you work in the car industry in Warwickshire…you can’t be too bad if drive a Seat.

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You did not look very far then. The existence of a God IS highly implausible based on the raft of alternative theories around. However, you decide to put your faith in one that requires the least amount of brain power to understand it. All the other theories require a little more brain power but ARE more plausible once you understand them.

Keep digging and get your self a Seat Leon Cupra R now that’s a proper car.

<< I had lots of imaginary friends when I was a child - mostly they were imagined animal friends that had human characteristics and I played out many wonderful scenarios with them. Out in the woods behind my house I wasn't riding my bike, I was riding my trusty steed and we happened upon many 'adventures' together. Isn't this normal for kids? At least, those with imagination.>>

Weirdo!

I used to act out things with action men and stuff (like deflowering my sisters Barbie dolls the action men deflowering not me...the action men deflowering the barbie dolls not deflowering me...thats not the barbie dolls not deflowering me but the action men deflowering me and me left out of the equaiton all together) however I never had imaginary friends.

Robin Williams puts his comedic skills down to being stuck in his bedroom as a kid making characters up. However he IS a mentally unstable nutter so that does not ruin my argument.

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I agree with you THAT is healthy however the alternative reason is unhealthy and either way it should be addressed. However the irony is the kid with the normal inquisitiveness will probably have parents who would inquire about the situation when all is well. The Kid in the unhealthy situation where things should be worked out probably has not got anyone TO help them sort things out so nothing changes.

<< I was also brought up RC but this God never felt like any friend of mine, imagined or otherwise.>>

Do you still believe or have you broken the brainwashing? Serious question I would like to know.

<< I don't actually see people's beliefs in their various gods as having 'imaginary friends' but I also don't think they question their beliefs as strongly as they might question other things.>>

I do, but they believe these are real friends as much as a non-corporeal entity can be real. They only become imaginary once they have questioned their believes and taken the courageous step to take that paradigm shifting step to not believing in imaginary friends.

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I think that's a bit unfair, Alfster. People look for solace in religion for various reasons. Not *just* (as you would have it) because they are too stupid to look elsewhere.

Show a little compassion, eh?


az

>>So what are your grounds for deciding that parts of the bible are intended allegorically, and other parts literally?<<

I understood it from discussions with other Christians from various churches in my area, with the leaders at the church I go to, and with the use of various Bible reading notes, the vast majority of which are consistent. To be honest, this was an area that gave me trouble before becoming Christian (I've been one for 18 months), and I'm still exploring it.

>>And what grounds are there for thinking that the messages that are being conveyed are truthful in some "special way" not granted to other literature?<<

Well, I don't think there are. None that I can think of, anyway. . Truth is truth, wherever you find it. Although I find philosophy hard going.

Ahhhh... Alpha. During the course I was on, we asked an awful lot of tricky questions, especially at the beginning. I'm quite impressed that your friend got chucked off one, though - I was involved with a couple of courses, and while we had a lot of difficult questions, we never threw anyone out. And we never accepted that it had to be true just because it was in the Bible. Our group was me, a psychology PhD student, an Economics student, and a Maths teacher . It is a sort of simple introduction, I suppose.

>>You did not look very far then. The existence of a God IS highly implausible based on the raft of alternative theories around.<<

The other theory I could have applied was psychosomatic - i.e., I wanted my injury to heal when it was prayed for, so it did. If this was the case I wish it had happened a lot earlier . It hasn't recurred or relapsed in the intervening 18 months, which I may have expected had it been a purely psychological effect.

I'd love a Leon Cupra R, I just can't afford the insurance

Just in response to what someone said earlier. The account in Genesis of the order in which different animals and plants showed up does not correspond to the order we find them in in the fossil record. And of course, there are two different versions of it just in the Bible.

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You seem to have a very black and white view of parenting.

>>Show a little compassion, eh?

And possibly a little less willful offensiveness. Even if you hold a genuinely held belief that christians are stupid, there's something to be said for showing some restraint. Think of the flaming that racists would get for posting their genuinely held beliefs that some races are superior to others. Arguments = good, personal abuse = bad.

Az
Having a go at people maybe his substitute for religion/God; to make himself feel better.
We should have compassion for him.

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Yup, lucky I do not want kids...or I have some knowledge of disfunctional family units.

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Well, I think that goes without saying, Alfster! Am quite proud to be a weirdo!

How is playing with dolls any different than having imaginary friends, other than you have a plastic thingy in front of you to project your fantasies onto?

It's the same thing! Kids make up all sorts of fantasy situations using dolls. The ones that don't need dolls to do this are just showing more imagination.

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I really never believed, though I was forced to attend church and go through the whole rigamarole - confession, confirmation, etc. All the Catholic God ever did for me as a kid was give me nightmares about burning in Hell. So no, I am not religious.

However, I still believe in the possibility of all the various gods existing in the sense that they are human explications of what we cannot ever truly know. But something we sense and sometimes experience. I'm not uncomfortable not having all the answers so I don't feel a need to pretend I do.


az

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Philosophy can be hard going, but (IMHO) it's well worth the effort.

Noggin

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I think that's a bit unfair, Alfster. People look for solace in religion for various reasons. Not *just* (as you would have it) because they are too stupid to look elsewhere.

Show a little compassion, eh? >>

You took my meaning the wrong way. I apologise in that respect. I fully understand that people take solace in religion it is necessary these days as we do not have a fully integrated society who takes care of each other without people having to fall back on religion.

However, the least amount of brain-power that I state is just that the idea behind a God existing and creating a universe and it being here because he did is a very simple context. That's why it has survived for so long it is a brilliant theory that was not bettered for nearly 2,000 years until Darwin when a better theory came along that actually had some solid evidence to back that theory up with however it does take *more brain-power* to get your head round it.

I always go for the simple explanation of how quantum physics works as it takes less brain-power than the detailed stuff as it makes my brainache however I would love to get deeper into it if only I could give the time and energy and mathematical skills to actually understand it better.

I was not talking about mental capacity but its lack of use. And just because people take solace in religion it does not mean we should not state that it is not real or the truth.