h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Recumbentman: apologies accepted with thanks. Ani.

B. Re <>:

I would be careful about going too far down that road of linguistic determinism. However, the Catholic doctrine of lex orandi lex credendi gives some insight into how language affects belief. And, I suppose raises some questions as to how much one can say that language affects belief? Ani.

B. <>

Oh my God, B! What language is it? What verb means to love for the last time? How do you know so much about India? Ani.

>> I would be careful about going too far down that road of linguistic determinism.

I am careful.


>> What language is it? What verb means to love for the last time? How do you know so much about India?

I don't alas. I heard it on a programme about language on R4, and had to turn off the radio to absorb the thought. The programme did not give the words, merely the translations.

I think the language is Baruia - http://www.ksafe.com/profiles/p_code3/581.html and
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=BGE

B

I was about to ask for that reference! The R4 prog also mentioned that the same language also had a word for 'the noise made by mud when you stick your hand in a hole to catch a crab'.

For more on untranslatable Czech words:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7953/word.html
(Never mind untranslatable - I can't even pronounce them! Imagine the Czech version of 'Countdown': 'I'll have a consonant please. And another consonant. And another consonant. And another consonant.....')
I especially like 'knedlikový' (= 'rather partial to dumplings')

As to >>'lex orandi lex credendi' - while I'm a little wary of debating Catholic doctrine, which tends not to be a good guide in scientific matters ('Eppure se muove' as a wise man once said) - 'How one prays is how one believes' Well, yes, of course language shapes thoughts and beliefs. That's what it's for. But in the sense that if you use language to put over ideas to someone, then those *ideas* shape their thoughts. But that's not the same as the Sapir-Whorff notion that the *structure* of an individual language shapes thoughts. Example: The previous example of the Amazonions who could not count beyond four. Well - they've never had the need for the *idea* of numbers before. If they do, they'll invent or borrow terms of their own - just as we borrowed 'entepeneur' and 'Welstanschaung' and 'Avocado'.

But never mind that.....I've just heard that John Peel has died!!!!!!

Well, yes and ideas form language. I forget who it was (one of you, maybe Edward) who made the distinction between the word 'difference' and 'differance;' 'differance' being a word co-opted to forward a philosophical concept.

Don't blame me! Blame Jacques Derrida!

A for John Peel. How one listens to music, is how one dances, perhaps?

>> 'How one prays is how one believes'

A778034

B

sorry just to interject...john peel the dj, or john peel....another?

John Peel the DJ - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3956035.stm

I bloody hate it when people die.

B

I would think the reputation of Germans and Scots for engineering is largely based on them having universities that actually taught that sort of stuff during times when most of the rest of the world were faffing about with theology. I think its on the way out: the world respects East-Asian engineering these days.

An interesting thing about English is that its quite concise. One line of English can often translate to one and a half of French, German etc.

>> An interesting thing about English is that its quite concise

Which is a problem for multinational website design. Sites that are designed for English quite often do not have the real-estate for German, particularly for things like navigation buttons and so on. Designers are more alert to this now than they were when I first became aware of this problem for very practical professional reasons 4 years ago, but at that time it presented a lot of significant challenges when trying to automate the internationalisation of websites.

B

<>

There aren't that many irregular verbs in English, Ben, but the spelling *and* pronunciation is hell to learn (going by my Spanish students). They have five vowels, five sounds - we have twenty-odd (or more) sounds for our vowels. I guess because we have borrowed so many words over time.

And there are so many things that cannot be translated. Which has always made me wonder how poetry can ever be successfully translated.


az

These are the most remarkable poetry translations that *I've* seen....
http://www76.pair.com/keithlim/jabberwocky/translations/index.html

The great thing about English as a foreign language is the blessing of having ditched gender distinctions for most nouns, and the way adjectives don't have to agree with their nouns.

Good point about gender.

Have you seen this, Edward? http://waxdog.com/jabberwocky/nazi.html

B

IMO the best bits of English are the Old Norse words. Like 'sky'. Which beats the hell out of 'ciel'.

<,wonderful flexibility of expression and a truly amazing amount of nuance>>
That is one of the great strengths of English! But it can be very difficult to explain to second language learners... Rewarding, though, if I try.

<>
I was surprised how few there actually are! My superior gave a list of them to her students (the class I took over from her) and they didn't have much of a problem. Pronunciation was a far bigger problem, and I was lucky to have an all Chinese class, because the pronunciation problems vary from language to language. After intense drilling, most of them managed 'th', but my students from the former Yugoslavia (an earlier class) simply couldn't. It's true that some native speakers simply cannot hear a sound in another language - my latest class were drilling *me* in a Chinese phrase, and I thought I had it right, but they were very frustrated - there was a fine disticntion I obviously wasn't even hearing!