h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Edward is correct in admitting socio-linguistics into the discussion. As for the n-word: it's usage has predictably been influenced by considerations of power and who has had that power. The n-word is used commonly among people of African descent as an affectionate reminder of kinship and common history. Only when it is used as a means to diminish someone of African descent (by white folk, for example) has it become questionable.

One could attempt to draw an analogy with the m-word. However, I have never used the m-word -- not even rhetorically -- to refer to those who share my ancestry and faith. As soon as I hear the m-word, I excuse myself and leave the room. This is a vast improvement to my response of 15 years ago which was to kick one user of the m-word so hard between the legs that he couldn't come to karate practice for two weeks and, when he did come, noticeably avoided the business end of my feet. Hey, I do my best to walk away from a fight, but still have a lot to learn. Ani.

Here is a link to a site dealing with 'Queer Theory.'

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/#Queer

Perhaps you could expand a bit on 're-colonization' and on the re-colonization of the word 'Tory' just to keep this discussion open to those unfamiliar with these ideas. Ani.

'Re-colonisation' is a term I've just invented to mean taking back a term of abuse and wearing it with pride. Yes, in African-American society, the n-word is a badge of fellow-feeling....but is there not also, in hip hop, a hint of 'we're throwing it back in your face!' - as in NWA ? A little like 'punk' (although that word was hardly used in the UK before 1976).

As for Tory...it derives from the name for an Irish bog thief and was applied (presumably, initially, in a derogatory way) to the party of the landed gentry. Now members of the Conservative Party will readily talk about 'Tory values'.

There are some similar words used in Latin-American countries, but I'll have to consult my tame expert on those.

Well I've learnt something today. I knew "tory" was from the Irish for hunter or pursuer, but I didn't know (till I looked it up just now) that it was first applied politically to the supporters of the Catholic King James II, in the 1680s.

Ain't history wonderful? Here in Ireland Cromwell is still a name you don't mention, but (along with all the other Presbyterians!) the man was the original Republican!

And that too is a word that has different resonances across the Atlantic. In the US the Irish tend to be Democrats, but the ruling party in Ireland is Fianna Fáil, "The Republican Party".

>> Is it at all a question of language and linguistics, in the sense that a useful conclusion ccould be reached from linguistic considerations? <<

Yes.
My point being that it was johnny-come-lately English adventurers - using maps drawn by earlier Portugese, Spanish and Italian explorers - who saw the word Niger printed across the underbelly parts of Africa and mispronounced it. So what was 'nigh-jur' in the Romance languages became the n-word in English.

The people of that region had traditionally practiced slavery for centuries and Europeans were quick to cash in on the idea of free labour. They also readily adopted the same contemptuous attitudes toward their slaves as observed in the black slave owners who came by their 'property' thru victories in tribal warfare. Soon this fallacious superiority was reflected in the tone and usage of the word by speakers of English.

I am not saying it is a nice word or even an acceptable one; I'm just
showing its source and trying to demonstrate how it began innocently enough and only took on a negative connotation later.

~jwf~

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Yes, out of courtesy and self-preservation we have become adept at steering conversation away from the bad times. Of course, we have always had our way with the English language.

Only last summer, my friend's mother decided to make it obtusely clear what she thought of me and mine by making pointed reference to her family history which had included coming over to Ireland with Cromwell. To which I nodded and replied 'Quite the adventurers your family were.'

And left it at that. Ani.

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This isn't really very far from language, inasmuch as it *can* be a matter of definition... but who's in charge of the job of defining? The person themselves, IMO.
Which raises another linguistic question. Shakespeare apparently used "them" with a singular referent. Acceptable or not?

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Which reminds me of a discussion in (probably) New Scientist, as to whether mathematics is a human construct, or whether it actually exists "out there" independent of human thought... Not unrelated, is a story by sorry, I forget who, about a woman on Mars who "cracks" an alien language by use of a "Rosetta Stone" - the Periodic Table of Elements! (Because it is real and universal, not just a human construct. The universal translator on Star Trek is just fairy science - so could we communicate with extra-terrestrials?

Eek, we have lots of interesting threads going on simultaneously here. About the singular "they", that belongs in British English, and yes it is a very good way out of using "he/she" and is officially used by this venerable site.

About number words, isn't this a storm in a teacup? After all, computers do clever things with very large and very small numbers, very accurately and with exquisite discrimination, and all with the two digits zero and one.

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I am glad to hear that!I have met a lot of people who object to it very strenuously - but I still use it.

Current Canadian usage is to make the noun plural and then make the pronoun plural. For example: 'Posters may post what they feel like posting.' As opposed to 'A poster may post what he or she feels like posting.' I am not comfortable with using 'A poster may post what they feel like posting.' It is ambiguous. Does 'they' refer to some third party in the plural or to the person posting? It is this kind of ambiguity which makes writing unreadable.

In the case of Shakespeare 'they' referring to a singular noun may have been a continuation of the respectful singular form found in other languages. For example: 'vous' (French, plural and respectful singular). Ani.

>> ..a lot of people object to it - but I still use it. <<

And so you should.

It is perfectly acceptable and logical that when referring to the third person singular who is a theoretical or unknown person that we use they or them. The subtext is suggesting we mean 'one of them' or the possibility that it might have been 'any one of them'.

eg: "SomeONE broke into my car. THEY stole the radio."

As for Shakespeare, in many cases he was referring to characters of Royal stature, kings and dukes and such who use the plural form of the first person in reference to themselves. This is of course called the 'royal we' and in the third person it becomes the 'royal they'.

The same rule would apply to the 'editorial we'.

eg: "This newspaper is very biased. They support the Republicans."

So go ahead and use it strenusously at every opportunity. 'They' don't know what they're talking about.

~jwf~

*is going to regret this*

Umm, 'M-word'?

jwr. References? Check the Canadian Writers Handbook.

>> Check the Canadian Writers Handbook.<<
NO!

I stand by what I said.
The examples I gave are perfectly understandable and quite acceptable
usage.

>> References? <<

Ask Goldilocks and the 3 Bears.
"SomeONE's been eating my porridge. And THEY ate it all up!"


~jwf~

>> Check the Canadian Writers Handbook.<<
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Your opinion stands as unreferenced.

Pluralising is a better way to go, ani, and ideally, that's what I would do... Another thing I do, is, in referring to God, I avoid him/her by saying God says, God self... avoiding pronouns altogether, as God is neither male nor female.. what do you think?

Hi Adelaide. I am fine with however people want to refer to God. My friends say 'she,' I say 'He.' It doesn't matter to me.

While we're at it, the "m" word? I am intrigued!

The m-word is a derisive term for Irish Catholic. I am not going to spell it out on the board because the mods will remove it. Someone once explained to me that it derived from mc as opposed to mac. I don't care where it came from. I just don't like being around people who use it. Ani.