h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

'fanny state'

Police state was just a bit of a quip, because some people often keep going on about nanny state.

OK 'strict Victorian daddy state' when it comes to some things. Its just I get really fed up with the high percentage of lunatic drivers in the area live.

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Well, if you don't think it a valid argument, perhaps you would like to counter it? Can you explain why anyone today should *need* a car?

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If by "police state" you mean enforcement of the rules that are meant to prevent the current 10-per-day death toll on the roads, which is I believe the context in which it was used, then give me the police state any day. For a start, I would have two friends and a brother-in-law that I no longer have.

As has been clarified, cars are impounded and an opportunity given to pay a swingeing fee to get it back. I think you'll find that most cars crushed are worth not much more, probably less, than the fine in any case. So the crushing is a consequence of non-payment of a fine imposed for illegal behaviour.

However, even if this is put aside and we debate from the assumption that cars are seized and immediately crushed, it is in effect a penalty on a sliding scale anyway.

A poor person is likely to drive a car of lesser value anyway. So Mr Evil Moneybags gets his £40,000 BMW crushed whilst Mr Saintly Poorperson loses a 15 yr old Fiesta. Surely this is a punishment that disproportionately targets the rich?

Well since fines are supposed to be based on ability to pay anyway that would seem sensible if it was the intent.

As was mentioned before, if someone gets 'banned' from driving illegally, they pretty much shrug and carry on, right? It stands to reason (and is borne out by facts, well, at least anecdotal evidence. I certainly know people who fall into this category, unfortunately).

So if you impound and eventually crush/re-sell their car, you are doing many things:

You're removing that person's abiity to break the law, as they are obviously incapable of controlling themselves. (until such time as they get another car off a 'mate').

You're removing unlicenced vehicles from the streets thereby protecting those insured drivers and other users of our streets from the added losses of getting damaged by an unlicenced driver.

You're starting to remove un-roadworthy cars from use, which can only be good for the environment and our safety.

So... What's not to like?

Tell you what, instead of crushing the cars - which really doesn't fit well with the new recycling regulations anyway - we just take them away and give them to poor people. Then everyone is happy. Or everyone that matters, anyway.

Rich people really don't need cars anyway. They've all got helicopters.

On the subject of driving standards in general, I think the sheer volume of traffic causes a drop in standards. As people become frustrated, they develop bad habits. As these bad habits go unpunished, they are reinforced. Other people see bad drivers getting away with it and follow suit.

The car has become the single most powerful representation of individual freedom in our society, which may be why there is such shock & resentment at any measure aimed at reducing car use.

The answer is clear - build more roads. I've never seen a convincing argument against road-building anyway. The stock one is that new roads create demand. Nonsense. New roads meet demand.

Build more roads? No thank you. We've little enough countryside here in the SE as it is. For me quality of life is much about being able to visit some wood or heath for a picnic without the miserable drone of traffic a few yards away, as it is about using my car.

New roads reduce other aspects that increase our quality of life though as they will divide communities, reduce areas for housing, break up green areas etc... And I know some people are quite happy with wall to wall city scapes but I NEED open country and greenery.

I agree with what you said about cars being symbols of individual freedom, but I disagree that that makes it ok to pander to and allow greater rule of that mass over other necessities that are given less ecoomic value, such as allowing areas of natural beauty to remain that way...

We need to feed people's emotional and mental selves as well as their physical and material selves. And yes, whether they bleeding well like it or not!

Better roads open up areas for people. Just cos somewhere's green doesn't give it value. Weeds are green.

A new dual carriageway from Dunfermline to Kirkcaldy improved access to and from dilapidated mining villages and led to a rise in housebuilding and employment.

People tend to think of beautiful scenery when they think of the countryside, forgetting that much of it is dismal and useless. Near-bankrupt farms with much of the land lying fallow on set-aside. Little towns that lost their purpose when industry died and Beeching closed the railways.

A lot of traffic congestion takes place at choke points on the outskirts of cities as traffic is funneled into not enough access roads. More roads leads to less choke points.

>>A new dual carriageway from Dunfermline to Kirkcaldy<<

I don't think you can compare the situation in Scotland with London and the south east of England, where I live. More and more roads have been built in this relatively wealthy area of the UK. And ask anyone? they're sick of it. Its starts to become that you think, what's the point of leaving my home. I could have a barbie in the back garden rather than driving for hours on end to find somewhere tranquil and pleasurable. And I feel very strongly that things like that need to be protected when they are getting squeezed out.. That's where the capitalist philosophy always eventually falls down, it doesn't take account of the very things we make money for to enjoy in the first place.

Hey I'll just live on benefits, having picnics in my back garden. What's my incentive for working all the hours god sends, to drive for hours and hours on the little free time I have, to enjoy the English countryside, which is fast disappearing because they keep building more and more roads?

OKay I might be going to the extreme to make a point. But that's just about the size of it if you live in the strongest and most succesful capitalist area of the UK.

Less drivers on the road equals less cars which equals less choking up of roads too. If they did a test/census based on a practical and a theory test with no training, with instructors trained in some psychology as well as basic driving skills, I reckon the number of drivers taken off the roads would be vast. And if I was one of them, so be it. Life would suck for a while, I'd have trouble getting around so easily and work would be a major hassle, but you know what? If i'm deemed a bad driver then I shouldnt be on the road until I've been re-trained and developed my skills.

With better driving people would get around better because things would run smoother, and a large number of people would be off our roads permanently as they are evidently incapable of controlling a lethal machine with any degree of competency. I know at least three who I would remove licences from because they are incredibly dangerous every time they go out.

And just because I didnt spend ages specifying what I meant be green open areas doesnt mean that I strongly suspect you knew exactly what I was talking about. And yes, weeds are still greenery. And just as valid as carefully tended parklands... Nothing makes me happier than travelling (usually by car but I want to go on horseback) across the scottish highlands. Reasonably wild, not farmed to within an inch of it's life and full of weeds and vermin. Also known as flora and fauna... And building more houses (and then building employment for the raised population) is what we need EVERYwhere ALL the time is it? I disagree, though I wouldnt by any means say that all communities are perfectly served, I know of plenty who WANT to be a little isolated, and would rather deal with the hardships of that than of living by some crass A road or motorway cutting a swathe through their environment, and the social impact of living in higher population areas...

yes but, Fanny, most of us don't care about London and the South East in much the same way it doesn't care about us

Well yes Sho. It's very true that many of us don't give two hoots about our bretheren north of the border, and its always been that way. Despite all the whining about London centrickness. We'd be more than happy to say bye bye to them. There's better things we could spend our taxes on, such as English people being entitled to the same drugs as people in other parts of the UK, and our students not having the curse of so much debt around their necks, whilst things are rather different elsewhere in the UK. And the sooner we get rid of that bloody idiot, apology for a PM, the better.

Actually this discussion is quite interesting because it demonstrates just how different things are in different parts of the UK. I've noticed this quite a lot recently from convos on h2g2.

"The answer is clear - build more roads.
No it's "a" clear answer.

A clear answer to a headache is amputation at the neck.

A clear answer to expensive feed for cows is to feed them cheaply available food obtained from bits of other slaughtered cows.

A clear answer to wanting the same mobile as the bloke next to you at the bus stop is to hit him over the head and take his.


I've never seen a convincing argument against road-building anyway. The stock one is that new roads create demand. Nonsense. New roads meet demand.

You may have never been convinced by an argument against road building, but Osama bin Laden hasnt been presented with a convincing argument agaist global terror as opposed to peaceful protest and the democratic process.

Pope's - condoms.

Junkies - heroin.

Me - being a right pain in the rectum.


Doesnt mean that the arguments against arent correct factually just that some people are thick skulled on these issues.

one love

I get your point Fanny (and in the interests of being honest, agree with you) but...

we still don't care about a load of southern jessies being shafted countryside-wise once in a while.

BTW this southern jessie enjoyed her a la Nigella, (also a soft southern jessie's) soup tonight.

Anyway back to the topic in question....

we're getting ridiculously excited about making the chocolate cookies this weekend
what a buch of saddo northern gits!

Blimey, some topic drift in this thread.

Repeat offenders? Easily sorted, leave them in the car when it's being crushed. problem solved.