h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Dibs, i beleive it was me that originally used the examples of busy roads and elec sockets as reasons to smack a youngster who was too young to understand why he/she shouldn't repeatedly dissobey an instruction to do as they were told.

I have also stated in earlier posts that with an older child you CAN explain/reason with them which is why I have never felt the need to smack an older child who understood the danger they had put themselves/others in.

I just feel that it is up to the parent to decide if his/her child is to be smacked, according to how they chose to bring their child up and how their child reacts to discipline.

It appears only me and Galaxy babe seem to have similar opinions on this.

Dibs why do you hold that opinion?

Ive encountered a lot of "Well I am the parent" as if biology alone determined your legal right to override the human rights of another.

You say you can decide "according to how they chose to bring their child up and how their child reacts to discipline" . As much as I may trust your ability to carefully ascertain your childs emotional and intellectual development and then devise a suitable strategy for coping for bad or dangerous behaviour it is my experience that many parents just smack a child till they have satisfied their own rage, fear or whatever emotion is gripping them at the time.

You dont want the state telling you how to treat your children. The state tells you how to drive your car. The state tells you how to dispose of your waste. Where you can buy your booze and when you can or cant satch certain fish. These are all examples of individual freedoms being restricted for a collective benefit.

Well the "your" bit infront of "children" does not indicate ownership might have at one time but not any longer. You live in a modern society for better and for worse. You may fell it is the worse for your individual rights if a total smacking ban came in but I can assure you such a ban would do a hell of a lot for great many children, their children after them their grandchildren....

one love

Not Dibs

That's for pie shifter.

Well blicky, because I am responsible for the upbringing of my children. The government are only brought into controlling 'how' I bring up my children and remove that right when I am deemed unfit to do so.
I suppose the nazi party thought what they were doing was right too in Germany in the 30's... but thats another story.

Anyway you seem intent on provokation and whilst you are more than free to air your opinions I still think you should wait and experience parenthood before insisting you are right and everyone else is wrong.

To put it another way for you - I'd rather be operated on by a surgeon who had 20 years of experience than a man in the street who just had a good opinion of what I needed to make me well.

From what Blicky has said about his own background, in the other thread about this issue http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/F135418?thread=444749 I can see why he takes the stance that he does. Sadly I think he has not experienced the sort of loving discipline that Galaxay Babe talks about & cannot imagine parents administering a controlled smack without it escalating to abuse. Unfortunately there are some parents such as he describes, but I do not think a law against smacking is going to do much, if anything, to help them become better parents.

Yes. We all have our own problems....

I dont need to imagine the loving parents such as I honestly believe most if not all of you are.

Love does not always equate with good sense though.

Teaswill the point about my upbringing that I did not add is that I lived in more than one household growing up. *Both* used smacking one used it much more judiciously than the other on me.

So I have a diverse experience of smacking one did me no harm and the other did me and my brothers and sisters considerable harm. The experince and training I have had with and around children over the last few years have only served to reinforce what I learnt growing up.

I did not learn what I did without mistakes. My brother whose extremely unruly behaviour continues to this day, last week he kidnapped hi son from his ex girlfriends house is something I feel partly responsible for. I was stupid and short sighted in the way I treated him and wish I could turn back the clock I cant.

I wish the goverment had stepped in to ban the casual abuse of children that can lead to the stuff that needs and is too often missed by the authorities, families and even the husband or wife of the abuser.

It would make parents think a lot more about the strategies they use to guide and control their childrens behaviour.

I see a direct link between the way my mother was treated by her parents onto the way she treated me. How I treated my brother and even upto how my brother behaves today.

I copied my mothers bad example when I would have been better to copy my grandparents example. By the time they adopted me they had learned that beating children to any extent didnt really have the required effect.

When I managed to get in trouble with the police my biggest fear was getting home, but to my astonished relief I didnt get the beating of my life because "you wont learn till you're ready".

My grandfather learnt from the way his violence had affected my mom. Just about 20 years to late. I learnt my lesson about crime after awhile but the lesson about violence didnt sink in till about 5 years too late for my younger brothers and sisters.

one love

Yes. We all have our own problems...."Life is simple, people make it complicated"

Todays lesson is violence is wrong and Im going to teach you by smacking you.

Tomorrows lesson is I love you and I dont want you to get hurt and Im going to teach you by smacking you.

Todays lesson: heres a smack to make you listen , and it just might save your life.

Tomorrows lesson: If i don't let you know the consequenses of your actions by a smack on the hand cause you don't comprehend danger, then I might be burying you the day after tomorrow.

Ten years time lesson: I didn't ralise why you (my parents) were so opinionated by xyz but now I'm older I realise it was for my own good.

Don't try too hard to be 'holier than thou'.

*************

A couple of years ago it was decided by the local council that to make a road safer, they would introduce a chicane to slow down the traffic.

Within a year or so a cyclist in his mid 30's, a father of 2 was knocked down and killed.

Im not trying to be holier than anyone.

Read some more of the other thread. What I am saying is explicitly that mostly I thinkyou lot sound like decent parents. Iam not demanding perfection or that every parent be prosecuted every time they administer a light smack.

Ive assaulted women, men and children. In full view of others I have done things that could have been reported to and possibly acted on by the police, I could have ended up with any number of convictions.

Thats because I have used physical restraint and straight up violence. Ive worked as a bouncer on pub doors, a youth worker. None of the incidents were reported to the police only one was reported to my bosses by a 13 year old boy and his parents (when they heard what their son was actually doing to another worker at the time his parents took their son away looking rather sheepish)

I agree with people **not** being dragged into court for using minimal force to deal with emergencies.

What I dont agree with is people having a right to use force pretty much as they see fit simply because of theirbiological relationship to another person.

What in the name of bob almighty are you on about

"A couple of years ago it was decided by the local council that to make a road safer, they would introduce a chicane to slow down the traffic.

Within a year or so a cyclist in his mid 30's, a father of 2 was
knocked down and killed."

"when he grew up the slaps stopped after he beat the living hell out of her"

amazing! this is almost the story of my life - except i never beat my mother, just threatened her to do so when i was old and big enough

i agree that also verbal abuse can stigmatize a child. however this discussion is only about smacking which is why i didn't and wont comment on the question of verbal abuse

apart from that i see nothing new in this discussion so i will follow my good friend AGB's example and

[unsubscribe]

sorry for the inconvenience & thanks for all the

"Iam not demanding perfection or that every parent be prosecuted every time they administer a light smack.

I agree with people **not** being dragged into court for using minimal force to deal with emergencies."

Mmmm, well I got the impresseion from earlier posts that you thought otherwise. But I agree with what you say here.

Obviously the use of anything other than a light smack in circumstances other than emergencies (for want of summing up all the cases of why i would smack a child from previous posts) is not acceptable in any form.

"What I dont agree with is people having a right to use force pretty much as they see fit simply because of theirbiological relationship to another person."

This is true too. Being a parent doesn't give you the right. For me a smack is a last resort for 'pieshifter junior', but what I say is to hit another parents child is a complete 'no'.

From the last post, and the previous thread I see that you have managed to take what life has thrown at you and remained level-headed so to you for your stregnth of character.

The bit about the cyclist was an example of a concern i have for governing bodies racing away and trying to do the right thing but ending up just creation a different problem. Which is what I can see the government doing with the ban on smacking.

Another example is the the way the CSA has alienated fathers from their kids, drove a wedge between seperated parents who were - before the csa - on reasonable terms, and in extreme cases (i think) caused suicides.

Ho hum.

Well, I'm going to unsubcribe farily soon because we are going round in circles, but before I do, here is a question.

When my friend, still a child at the time, beat up his mother, she had him arrested. It never went to trial, he just got a night in the cells, but he was told if he did it again he would be charged. (How he dealt with that is a different story, but rest assured he won).

The question is this. Why should it have been legally acceptable for his mother to be violent to him, but illegal for him to fight back? She was "reasonably chastising" him, the law couldn't touch her, and until the law changes then this will remain the case.

Pie shifter you say you smack pie shifter junior out of care so in the same emergency you wouldnt smack someone elses child does that mean you dont care as much for other peoples children in the same way?

Not wanting trivial cases taken to court is not the same as thinking it ought to be legal. I dont even condone it I think we should show tolerance but *not* acceptance of the tired old argument that they are my children and I know best.

Education of children is mandatory because of goverment rules but other forms than state education are allowed but denying children education is not allowed.

I think we will only have moved on from fuedal standards of possesion over others when we have finally given children the rights enjoyed by adults.

one love

"I have even let a few youngsters know just how much I could hurt them if the mood took me. Its a shameless short cut but it does get respect........." BB

Interesting "boundary" BB

Parenting is a much larger , more important and lonlier investment than any sport.
Two parents often do not see eye to eye and the kids test that.
If there is one parent often there is no back-up no "team" defense for discipline.

*******************************************
"Your child *should be so tired they want to go to bed. Parents *should have taught children the importance of responsibility by reasoning and example" BB

Careful there you are shoul'in all over the place!
You cannot infuse all lessons at once. Life and parenting is a process. You would probably be most frustrated with parenting. Thinking you will have full control and by "reasoning" no less sets you up for the kind of frustration which will have you eating your should'in words fast.

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"Are you advocating children can be beat becasue parents want some peace and quite or because they dont want to do the dishes themselves and want to force their children to do it?"

BB nobody advocated that!

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"Why the sudden concern?
Smacking was good enough for your own child?"

If I understand GB right - she deals with both children currently.
Children do require different levels of discipline.
Dealing with children as individuals with different personalities and needs is a neccesary reality.

**********************************

"the parent hasnt had the foresight to prevent." BB

You are missing the reality of parenting 24/7. Parents develope amazing intuition but not ESP and super hero abilities.

******************************

"You seem to think it is the sole right of the parent obviously for you unlike children do not need boundaries" BB

I think this is unfair.

There IS a differece between an attention ,activity stopping smack vs a punch or violent twist or worse. Most smacking that is being talked about is not done to hurt but to startle.
It is not beating!
A smack can tell them to listen this is serious, stop immediately. The tone of voice alone used will often work the next time.

Because you use a smack once or a few times does not mean you will want or need to again or that it will escalate. (adult boundaries!) If you are understood when they are young you usually do not need to "smack" them or ground frequently later. Not always

The idea of punishment and/or your dissapointment in them is enough if you have not abused parental rights and you have their respect. And if you are lucky. Parents are people too and allowed mistakes and some trial and error experiments. Just like the children, they often do better when they know better.
Good Luck Parents

"I have even let a few youngsters know just how much I could hurt them if the mood took me. Its a shameless short cut but it does get respect........." BB

Interesting "boundary" BB

Parenting is a much larger , more important and lonlier investment than any sport.
Two parents often do not see eye to eye and the kids test that.
If there is one parent often there is no back-up no "team" defense for discipline.


Im aware that Im coming across assome kind of preachy self appointed expert.

Preachy. Guilty as charged.

Expert. Well anyone who tries to think about what they have gone throuhg will get some degree of knowledge or proficiency from it.

So in this I accept your point about my actions contradicting my words. I know that this is the case. In a serious situation like a fight breaking out situation I would stop a session of activities to deal with the matter as best I could. When I have seen a youngster literally throwing his weight around I will sometimes make them aware of just how much weight I have to throw around *and* later explain how doing this in a way that breaks the rules is unfair. I let them compare their lack of strenght next to mine with the feelingsof the people they are dominating by forceorother forms of bullying.

Furthermore people who have little emotional literacy can take a lot to get through to. Some young people turn up only willing to listen those who are strong enough to dominate them. I dont think they are always in awe and fear of my size and strength they also respect the fact that I dont abuse it.

>>Why should it have been legally acceptable for his mother to be violent to him, but illegal for him to fight back? She was "reasonably chastising" him, the law couldn't touch her, and until the law changes then this will remain the case.<<

Sometimes complicated family situations aren't easy for police to understand when they are trying to stop people from getting hurt. Chances are they put him in jail for his own safety...not really sure who to believe.

"Your child *should be so tired they want to go to bed. Parents *should have taught children the importance of responsibility by reasoning and example" BB

Careful there you are shoul'in all over the place!
You cannot infuse all lessons at once. Life and parenting is a process. You would probably be most frustrated with parenting. Thinking you will have full control and by "reasoning" no less sets you up for the kind of frustration which will have you eating your should'in words fast.

***************************************
"Are you advocating children can be beat becasue parents want some peace and quite or because they dont want to do the dishes themselves and want to force their children to do it?"

BB nobody advocated that!


I'll deal with these to together as they both stem from questions Xan posted. Children need a lot of rest because they are growing so much and appropriate exercise not only helps them grow but also tires them out. If you keep to a regular routine with them they will on the whole respond by becoming accustomed to and happy in their routine.

XAN asked:
So what do the non-smack advocates on here suggest as a punishment for children that don't behave? I'm curious. We are talking children who don't do as they're told, and won't go to their room just because you say so.

Forgiveme if I have misinterpreted (not an unknown occurance) but it does look to me like he is advocating smacking in such cases. I wasnt sure and that's why I asked.


********************************
"Why the sudden concern?
Smacking was good enough for your own child?"

If I understand GB right - she deals with both children currently.
Children do require different levels of discipline.
Dealing with children as individuals with different personalities and needs is a neccesary reality.

**********************************

Sorry to be pedantic, but its important here. Discipline and punishment are different things. What you are talking about is punishment and GB was using different kinds to acheieve the levels of discipline she deems necessary.



**********************************

"the parent hasnt had the foresight to prevent." BB

You are missing the reality of parenting 24/7. Parents develope amazing intuition but not ESP and super hero abilities.

******************************


No Abbi, Im not missing the reality of parenting 24/7. That is unless Im unaware of any parents who spend their time 24/7 with their children next to busy roads, in supermarkets, in rooms with uncovered electrical sockets or any combination of the above.

For two of those occasional situations one potentially extremely hazardous and the other, it seems from the posts here and on two related threads, a flash point for smackings because of embarassment over tantrums there are fairly simple and amazingly effective coping strategies.

Here are some simple ones available to most parents:

Set up a creche so you dont have to do essential things like going into town ect with your toddler.

Learn about how pre-school children see this world and accept they dont understand danger the way adults normally do.

Shop on-line and get things delivered.

Use reigns so even if you cant hold your childs hand you can still stop them running into those busy roads.

As for those sockets and electrical wires:

Minimise the number of trailing wires, its good for the health and safety of everyone in the home.

Buy or even get for free from your local health authority, community safety, surestart or similar organisation cable tidies and socket covers.

You can child proof them by strategic placing of heavy furniture.

Above all remember that at a certain stage of developement one of your childs major priorities is to explore their world you will have a devil of a job changing that and if you do you will be stifeling their development.

How about putting the duty to nurture them in a safe environment ahead of your right as a parent to smack.

Lets think have the Swedish rushed to reintroduce the right for parents to smack because of a spate of road deaths and electrocutions amongst children.

I choose these because these examples are the ones brought up time and again by parents on this and other threads about this issue as reason why they *need* to smack.

Not the only two examples of the need to smack, but far and away the most common.

Then there is this:

Posted Nov 17, 2003 by 2BadgerLegs- London meet 10 July A2427013- 1PM Hyde park Bandstand, 6PM Penderel's Oak. He ain't heavy he's my badger (U775300)
'Parents' need to be 'dealing' out more disaplin to their children, not less. I wonder who's fault it is that obisity is geting to rediculus proportions in our childrren, I wonder why there are increasing problems with disapalin with young children in schools, I wonder who takes this responsibility, governments I guess that makes just so much sense.
Banning smacking, will no doubt result in all child abusing individuals stopping hitting and physically abusing children, it seems banning sex with children worked in preventing pediphilia.

Now I could say that 2Legs'opinion doesnt count because he's got no kids of his own, but that woould be purely sarcastic. So I just have

To him a lack of "'dealing' out disaplin to their children". Has resulted in rocketing obesity levels, unruly chidren in schools. Odd that considering the biggest jumpin expulsions fromschool did not directly follow the banning of corporal punishment in schools but the introduction of league tables for school attainment. Whats more Im sure i could find you plenty of self help groups where people with eating disorders were dealt disciplne a little too strong for their tastes when they were growing up.

He like others also seems to think ( I could be wrong again) that because we dont have zero paedophilia even with the laws concerning sex with minors that we shouldnt bother banning smacking. Can we therefore take from this line of thinking that as the same laws around sex with minors dont stop incest that we should allow parents to have sex with children as long as its their own children and the goverment should not interefere.



As far as Im aware the only other example given for the need to retain smacking is that of where a child has been violent and aggressive. The idea that you can teach a child not to be violent by hitting the child absolutley astounds me.

I get the distinct impression that most if not all of the posters on this subject who have children *do* love them deeply yet their actions without contradicting for the most part this, do leave me thinking that these parents are stupid if they think that smacking is what a loving parent ought to be doing and lazy if they cant think of and wholeheartedly take up other ways other ways of discipling children.

Im not saying one is a sinner for losing it from time to time or a bad parent. I'd have prefered most of these to my own mom. Yet there are some who insist that this archaic right must live on and be an alternative open to all parents at anytime they see fit.

Practically its stupid. It is much harder to redden the skin of a dark skinned child so some children will be open to abuse even within the law.

Philosophically and emotionally it goes against what most parents want for their children. They dont want other people hitting htem no matter what and they dont want their children to be violent. Yet they take the risk through hittinmg them during their formative years of conditioning their children to violence.

one love

Sorry, Blicky, I don't have time to read your last post... maybe over the weekend.

I've been reading this thread at work (where I can't log on) and been thinking a lot. I've also been getting rather more than annoyed at the holier than thou attitude displayed by several posters (probably I'm one of them, but I can't realy evaluate my own tone)

Anyway, having thought a lot and having been talking to GB, I have to say this first: walk a mile in their shoes.

I think that's self-explanatory.

Everybody's situation is unique. And despite what some people think, parents in general, know their own children better than anyone else knows them. I am referring only to those of us here who have come out and said how we regard a little smack in extreme circumstances to be a valuable tool in an emergency situation.

There was a reference (Blicky, honestly, I'm not picking on you but this really stood out to me) about not hitting a 10 year old and a 13 year old after an incident.

I believe that I and others have said: smacking is valuable for a child aged from around two up until they can understand a reasoned argument (in Gruesome #1s case that was about a year ago, in #2s case it is around now - they are 7 and veryverynearly6) Nobody at all has even hinted that they think in any way shape or form that smacking (tapping) a child outside of those ages is acceptable.

If people haven't understood my position, here it is again: as a last resort, and under extreme circumstances (running in front of a car, hurting a child smaller and less able to defend itself than them, touching an electrical socket/knife, trapping fingers in doors) a tap on the bottom or the hand is an acceptable alternative to something more serious injury or harm to the child. As long as that child is old enough to understand the tap and the reason, as long as that child isn't old enough to understand a reasoned argument, and as long as it isn't done in anger, hurt or all the rest of the disclaimers.

There was something else that stood out.

Oh yes: repeated references to people using a possessive expression in regards to the children carrying their genes. (i'm not sure if anyone is referring to step/adopted children - apologies if so) I use the expression and so do others: my children. Yes, they came out of my body, and they carry my husband's genes.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that if they were wrecking someone's car/beating up someone's granny/bunking off school/doing drugs they would be MY children. as in "your children are out of control"

They are my children: they don't belong to me any more than I belong to them. Only I do belong to them, and that is right and good. So let's stop with the criticism of that expression and embrace and applaud the fact that we own up to them


I would never smack/tap someone else's child unless THERE WERE EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES:I'm thinking specifically of being about to tip hot tea on themselves, sticking fingers in electrical sockets or running out in front of a moving car. if it prevented an accident I'm very prepared to take the consequences. I have to believe that a jury of my peers wouldn't convict for that.

Which brings me on to my next point (man, this is getting long, sorry). In cases (like the previously - maybe not in this thread, though - quoted example of the man in Scotland beating his son with a belt and getting off with the "reasonabe chastisement" sorry lame excuse) where someone has used the reasonable chastisement defence and it has quite clearly been a case of abuse or serious injury...
what the F**K were the judge/jury thinking of? In those cases it is those people who are to blame for the insidious spread of this defence (although, I'm not sure how often it is used)

My tip: if you're on a jury and a case like this comes up - convict the abusing b***ard. There is no excuse. I hope juries/judges who haven't conviceted such cases in the past are feeling very guilty, and that Karma bites them on the backside.

I realise that there are people around (some on this thread) who were likely abused in some way by their parents. I have nothing to say to them except that I'm sorry it happened to them, they didn't deserve it and to offer a if they want it.

But let's all be clear: a tap on the bottom does not constitute abuse. And anyone who thinks it is, IMO, is having a wee problem with perspective.

Now, I may post here again but I don't really want to. I'm a working mum and I have to spend enough time defending my decision to work outside the home (while my hubs doesn't - have to defend his position, that is) without now having to defend my child rearing capabilities (or not).

"But let's all be clear: a tap on the bottom does not constitute abuse. And anyone who thinks it is, IMO, is having a wee problem with perspective."

I agree.
I was abused as a child and lost a sibling through abuse but I can certainly see the difference.

I also understand many abused folks fear they could not hold that line. If you have only been hurt in anger for the purpose of revenge it is hard to understand a possible need for this infrequent disciplined approach of last resort.
I understand that too.

If adults have any doubts about how to handle anger, loss of control you should be wise enough to know you cannot ever use this method.
If ever you do lose it, get help.

This sort of blanket condeming of a slap = abuse keeps good parents from getting help sometimes