h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

sort of simulpost, Clive. You are exactly right; some simply don't give a flip for reality.

Let's make a bet.

What tack will our theists take?


a) Obfuscation.

b) Denial

c) Ignore.

d) Repetition.

e) Some combination of the above.

f) Start praying fervently for some localised weather disturbance to smite the unbelievers.

What angers me, is yet again points I make about other cultures and the utterly ridiculous idea of imposing the jesus story on all cultures, whatever the damage it may do to them, the completely nasty idea of the universalism of Christianity is just ignored.

This is what I find so preposterous. There's this ONE single religious fairy tale...if nothing else the cultural imperialist arrogance of the attitude disgusts me.

As I say I've seen the consequence first hand in my travels in Australia. I also saw it to a lesser degree in South America, in French Guiana. I'll never forget one day seeing this really pathetic indigenous Indian guy there in a park, telling people that Jesus loved him. Mentally and psychologically he appeared to be shot to pieces. This is what really angers me is that over hundreds and hunderds of years this bloody Christian universalism has gone around the world destroying communities and other ways of life.

Do they respond to that on this thread? Do they cluck...

They assume everyone on the planet is a person devoid of their own culture, waiting to be saved for Jesus. What arrogance. What stupidity. What cruelty. I bet half the Christians who post on these boards have never bothered travelling to any region where you can see the results of what happens when Christianity has been forced down other vulnerable cultures' throats.

I experienced it in terms of the violence it could do and destroyed my previous relationship. But it's been doing this for hundreds of years all over the planet...to all sorts of people that just want to live their life outside the christian value system and all the self hate and idea of being sinner that entails if you choose not to sell your soul to that particular self hating/sinning/divine retribution mindset.

Like I say. That point is continually ignored here. Everything inconvenient to the universalism of the christian vision gets ignored here. Never mind we atheists. The contempt and hate they have heaped on other belief systems for two thousand years is what they really refuse to talk about.

Brush it under the carpet, and pretend it isn't there.

I understand that you want proof of God's existence, and in time God will provide proof. The problem is that by then it will be too late, because knowing God is based on trust and faith. Salvation is through faith. Once God has proved he exists, which he will, it will no longer be possible for you to respond with faith to the gospel.


God sees you and the way you make light of him.
Being skeptical is one thing, but by mocking God you are bringing judgement on yourself.

Notice how WG has ignored the posts I put up yesterday.

No refuting the statements I made about the 'evolution' of the Bible from North African tribes etc.

Isn't that option (c) ignore.

Just carry on saying God will find away, eventually you will know the Truth. All prophetic empty statements not giving one jot of evidence...oh...apart from what it says in one particular religious text.

I'm suspecting that often persons of faith have a conscious or unconscious hierarchy of evidence: Scripture (as interpreted by sanctified common sense) is of absolutely highest value; for some, personal revelation is of equal or nearly equal value to scripture; personal experience of the world is very reliable as is the personal experience of other believers ('this herbal stuff cured my lumbago!'); of lowest value are the peer reviewed, published, replicated, widely accepted results of experiments, studies, archaeological investigations, etc. conducted by secular doubting Thomas egg-heads.


we are trying to bridge a vast abyss between two separate and absolutely incompatible worlds. As mentioned, the evidence is there to be seen, provided one inhabits the world which contains that evidence.

Yes they come to this thread and parrot their arrogance over and over, with no care in the world for any other outlook.

I mean really it's not a problem for we well educated atheists.

But get them to face the fact that there are other hugely VULNERABLE people and cultures in the world that can get really hurt by this stuff and we hear not a dicky bird.

just their endless 'pretty polly' parroting and the smug confidence and callousness about the harm they do with this self loathing mindset.

I predict WG's pretty polly parotting will never end. Endless parotting means you don't have to THINK or FEEL.

KZWG:

Come on then, let's get your god down here for some judgment then.

His followers always 'big him up' on the retribution stuff but nothing ever somes of it.

Yes, I'll mock YOUR god and every other one until the real one. if there is one, stands up and is counted.

Millenia upon millenia people have been showing that religions and their texts are purely man-made and yet the one real god does nothing to stop all this.

He merely waits for us all to 'let him into our hearts'. Well, I am sure it hasn't avoided his attention but we now have something called 'the scientific method' it is based on evidence and rationality and the existence of gods fails the scientific test. So, at this point he really does need to make a personal appearance because alot of us are not listening to the strange men and women in funny clothes who think they can tell us what to believe in just because they 'feeel it in their hearts' that what they believe is true...oh, and of course it's written in whatever religious book(or even version ofbook) that they rely on.

So, yes I mock your god because at the moment he doesn;t really come across as all that intelligent or pro-active in sorting out the mess he has created down here what with all the different religions and then all the different version, if he is Yahweh, of what he wants us to do: teh Torah, the OT, the NT, the Koran...but why go on you'll just ignore all what I have said and either ignore it or say 'you will find out eventually', 'god knows what he is doing' etc blah de blah etc

c) it is then. Hellfire and Buggery! I had riding on e).

oh but seriously I don't want proof of god's existence, I think it's highly improbable that gods exist at all. I therefore claim there is an absence of evidence. I expect none to be forthcoming.

It is you who claim gods exists, not I. I do however want your evidence. I want your - objective - evidence. I want to know how you distinguish between a deceptive super-being and a divine super- being.

There seems to be this belief amongst theists that subjective evidence (personla revelation, faith etc) is equal to objective evidence. and until we who lack the subjective experience filters don the theistic goggle we just won't see what lies before us.

Which is why I'm glad to be a goggle-less, godless atheist. Because what is true shouldn't be dependent on personal filters of reality.

No. I do not want proof of God's existence. I don't particularly care.

Unless . . .

you use your god


to tell me what to wear
to tell me what to do in bed
to tell me who I can vote for
to justify killing me
to tell me what days I can do what on
to frighten my children
to corrupt the education in the schools I pay for
etc.


If you use your god for anything that impinges on the freedoms and rights of anyone else in the global society then you *must* give testable, objective, clear and plain evidence of that god's existence. This is especially so when you have given us a description of your god as being such a disgusting, immoral being.



Effers:

your description of the broken man reminds me of so many white Christians I've seen, including that poor unhappy kid in the video WG showed us the other day.

KZWG:

Yes, and whats so bad about that?

Nothing...apart from the fact that it will be interesting to find out if it's the Christian version of the god or the Islamic version of the god in which case the NT is a tad wrong in Jesus being the son of a god.

Oh, yes and just WHEN will he prove he exists. Since Christians are so fond of saying theirs prayers get answered all the time ask him tonight for me and gte back with his timetable for me tomorrow...thanks.

>>..by mocking God..<<

Wrong again!

It is not possible to mock something that does not exist.

OTOH, it is perfectly acceptable, and needful, to mock foolish beliefs.

I can't help but notice that the god you portray sounds more and more like Cthulhu, and less like an all-loving, fatherly type...

Don´t go mocking Chtulu!

Indeed, Effers, Anhaga - the video of the atheist turns Christian was sad because it seems to have been such a hard life beset by drugs and dependency or like the chap from Mickey's church who has apparently left a life of violence. These are good things I don't think I can maintain that we wish their lives were worse.

What we can say is that their personal situations, tragic as they are, don't make their beliefs true. If they have some utility then I sort of applaud that. but merely being useful isn't the same thing as valid. Making one feel better is not a standard of proof.

See I could invent a religion right now.

It's basic tenets are

*Be good and kind at all times*

*Respect the planet.*

*Teach science and maths to the personal capabilities of all and cherish their discoveries*


----------

If you fail in these tennets you sins will condemn you to ever-lasting torture after death by a 7-headed, purple demon called Kenneth.


Let's just say I could spread this religion all over the world with the same rapidity as Effer's bemoans of Christiantity.

If people subscribed to this new religion I could guarantee, right here, right now - that we would live in a better world , many people lives would be vastly improved and societies across the world would evolve for the better.

However - ever if the majority of the world's population subscribed wit all the religious fervour they could muster and a new era of religiously inspired science and mathematics, good will and ecology was ushered forth - for all that - it wouldn't be true.

I think I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle to you other guys..(what's new)

But my point is that we really have nothing to fear from these people, being well educated, and at least in the UK, godsquadism is still essentially something to be laughed at by the majority.

But the point has been made over and over on this thread and others. What is the evidence for the universalism of the CHRISTIAN god? That's the hard question they ALWAYS ignore.

It's so much easier for them to fight on the one front. Christianity versus atheism. It suits their purposes nicely.

It means they don't have to look at the cruelty they have caused the world over for two thousand years.

If you guys want to keep the fight on that ground you are playing right into the hands of the likes of WG, because he knows we are essentially robust in our thinking. We have friends who think like us in real life. It's just an intellectual game.

But what he and his ilk will never talk about is what they love to do to much more vulnerable people.

(BTW I'm not saying other cultures' theism is anymore true, I'm just pointing out how much easier it is for them to feel self righteous/martyred and put upon, when they can make ATHEISM their enemy. I think it feeds their insatiable hungry gaping maw for feeling persecuted).

>>Don't go mocking Chtulu!<<

Oi, watch yer spelling!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagh'nagl fhtagn!

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

'What is the evidence for the universalism of the CHRISTIAN god? That's the hard question they ALWAYS ignore.'


it's the same evidence they use to prove that he exists. They have a personal relationship with the big guy, so it's as obvious as the nose on your face to them: he exists and he's the real one, unlike all those false gods. If they don't need physical evidence to prove he exists, why would they need evidence to prove that he's the only true one?

I think, if I've understood Effer - will you agree, there are multiple levels of the assumption of universalism which is common to religions in general, which includes Christianity in particular.

I think, if I was engaging with your point I might fix that criticism at higher level as a problem with religions rather on Christianity in particular (although both would be valid - if you see my point)

I was watching those BB4 programmes on medicine recently (inspired the QI question if you haunt those forums) and I think it was Polio was being discussed and the vaccination against it is opposed by religious groups. I would argue not eradicating a paralysis illness on the grounds of personal faith in contest with scientific advance is cruel. someone may well disagree.

We can always site The problem of Aids in Africa which has a very simple and obvious solution - contraception - which is not merely opposed but actively lied about by The Catholic church and it's emissaries. I think that borders on inhuman. Someone may well disagree.


I take your point about the intellectual argument being something of a game. I think it's right to resist oppose and expose the flaws and distortions of religious thinking (and again Christianity as a particular and pervasive example) but you are also right that the lens can be focused on wider problems which affect many more people more directly and more permanently.

The whole rotten edifice should be torn down.

Effers:

<>

You accuse me of arrogance, but that's not the spirit in which I write these things. The signs are there that we are entering the last phase before Jesus returns. I know people have anticipated this for centuries, but so many prophecies are coming true now: the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state in 1948, Israel surrounded by enemies, Israel turning green while all the neighbouring countries are desert http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/nasamap.html
Israel becoming a major exporter of fruit and flowers, the dead sea where no living thing can survive becoming freshwater
http://the-humanstain.blogspot.com/2008/05/dead-sea-prophesied-in-bible-to-become.html
the collaboration of Russia and Iran (Persia), the rise of Europe and the decline of America, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit among God's people.


If I warn you and you don't take heed, at least my conscience will be clear. But if I see these signs and fail to warn you then I will be held accountable by God for your blood. http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=blood+watchman

I suppose while we're on the topic, the big problem at the moment is the massive growth of Christianity in China. It's not one of the friendlier brands either. I don't suppose their culture is in any danger as such, but one of these days there's going to be a nasty confrontation there and the US will probably get involved.