h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This Dawkins thread seems to be the best place
to raise questions of spirituality, Life, the Universe
and all that sorta stuff. Basic questions about the
meaning, causes and futures of human existence.
Things both Religion and Science try to explain.

I recently came across this statistical mapping
of lightning strikes which shows a disproportionate
number occurring in the heart of Africa.

http://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml

This raises several speculations about the origins
of Life, the origins of Man, the current politics
and value systems of the area in question and quite
possibly explains why early man was so eager to get
"out of Africa".


~jwf~

Lightning keeps striking in the Congo.
Like in Dr Frankenstein's lab.
New life forms are constantly being created:

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/storm_watch_stories3&stormfile=New_monkey_species_discovered_in_Africa_13_09_2012?ref=ccbox_weather_topstories


~jwf~

I suppose it wouldn't matter much if I pointed out that the origin place of humanity is likely northern Tanzania rather than Congo.

No, not really. The map of lightning strikes
covers a fairly large area of central Africa.
'Borders' are quite arbitrary modern constructs.
Doctors tend to ignore them.
Frankenstein was a doctor.



~jwf~

Here's another: http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/12/spanish-nun-accused-of-stealing-babies-in-another-forced-adoption-scandal/

"MADRID — An elderly Spanish nun appeared in court on Thursday to face charges of stealing babies, after claims by hundreds of women that their infants were taken from them at birth and given away in illegal adoptions.

Doctors, nurses and religious workers at several clinics and hospitals in Spain are alleged to have sold babies for adoption over decades, after telling new mothers that their infants had died." Reuters

That reminds me of the secret forced sterilization program's that occurred in the US for decades.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/20/12321330-north-carolina-budget-drops-payment-to-forced-sterilization-victims?lite

While not necessarily religiously motivated it still demonstrates that abhorrent ideas and practices can be rationalized and justified by certain segments of modern civilized societies.

I thought enforced sterilisation was a racist, rationalistic, social darwinistic, atheist doctrine, and something entirely orthogonal to religious doctrine.

Hi Stone Aart,
Your interesting hypothetical questions seem to have gone unremarked, so I'll have a stab if I may.

>I have a few question for the experts and others (thanks in advance).

>If the Romans hadn't destroyed the temple in 70AD what would have happened to fledgling Christianity?
Paul the Apostle is said to be the true founder of Christianity and he apparently lived and died before the temples destruction.

>What would have happened to Judaism if the peoples of Judah hadn't been captured and sent into exile to Babylon?

Obviously I don't *know* the answers to these. But my guesses would be:
Difficult to say what would have happened had the Temple not been destroyed. It seems reasonable to suppose that the Gospels were not written (at least in their current form) until the destruction of the Temple was more or less imminent, so they would be different. Judaism would probably have survived for much longer in it's earlier form - which might mean that Christianity would have found it harder to find purchase (I have no problem with the idea that it took a series of favourable events ("luck"!) for Christianity to become the most popular religion the world has ever known).

As for the Exile - without it, we would not have the Bible in its current form. Judaism would have stayed more 'primitive', I would guess, possibly polytheistic. It might have gone the way of the other 'pagan' Middle-Eastern Bronze/Iron religions, or it might have become even more widespread, hard to say.

>ps what are peoples views that the founder of the "hebrews" was from Ur in mesopotamia. Presumably he would have carried with him the story of gilgamesh with him on his departure that made its way into Genesis. Or would the gilgamesh story have been learnt and integrated into Genesis during the Babylonian exile?

Babylonian exile seems more likely - it fits with the date of the Bible. I doubt the Hebrews had a single founder, and if they did he would have had a more antiquated form of Gilgamesh (if he didn't pre-date it altogether).

Gif

Hi jwf,

>I recently came across this statistical mapping
of lightning strikes which shows a disproportionate
number occurring in the heart of Africa.

Mmm, but does that really show anything other than that thunderstorms are more common in tropical regions?

I'm not aware that lightning has been proposed as a cause of humans evolving from other apes (the ultimate origin of life, perhaps, but that happened long before there was an 'Africa'.)

Gif

No! No! No! It was April 1st 10,000 BC.
Rachel Welch was there. So was Ringo.
They saw the whole thing. I swear.

~jwf~

>It was April 1st 10,000 BC.

April Fool's Day?

That explains so much...

Gif

Uhm yes.. but I don't think it was called Fool's Day
back then. It was "Hey Gerry just got struck by lightning
and is eating his own poo" day.

~jwf~

Atuk eeloonda Lana!

I'm quite surprised I can still quote Ringo Star from Caveman after all these years.

~jwf~

>>Babylonian exile seems more likely - it fits with the date of the Bible. I doubt the Hebrews had a single founder, and if they did he would have had a more antiquated form of Gilgamesh (if he didn't pre-date it altogether).<<

I have read of two other parallels between the bible and Sumerian myth / history.

a) Moses and the historical figure Sargon of Akkad.
Parallel of the birth and childhood of Moses and Sargon of Akkad (from a 7C BCE neo-Assyrian text according to wiki)
Sargon and Moses were semites.
Sargon founded a Mesopotamian Empire ... Moses "founded" a "Canaanite" empire.
Sargon founded the Akkadian Dynasty ... Moses "founded" a "Hebrew" Dynasty.

Any thoughts? Would Biblical Moses have been partly based on / inspired from Sargon?
Sargon was said to have lived during the 23rd – 22nd century yet a 7th century BCE neo-Assyrian text purporting to be Sargon's autobiography has been found. That's one heck of a memory of a distant "historical" figure.

Sumerian Kings list & Genesis Geneology.
The Sumerian Kings list has a preflood and post flood (first dynasty Kish) genealogy ... .
There is step change between the reign lengths of the pre and post flood rulers. Could be associated with the

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Could be associated with changes to Sumerian / Akkadian methods of numbering (base 60, tens and units).

>>..changes to Sumerian / Akkadian methods of numbering.. <<


An interesting insight. Certainly breathes fresh air
into the tired old theory that story-tellers just used
to exaggerate numbers for dramatic effect - which,
as a student of story-telling, has always been my
favourite explanation for 9oo year old prophets.

It suggests that hyperbole may have been a grounding
element in these cultures, designed to develop some
intellectual discrimination in the education of their young
- an area of thought suggested by Terry Pratchet in
his comments about our system of Lies To Children.

Never could accept the more common notion which is
clearly unsympathetic and prejudicial - that these primitive
folks didn't know how to count properly in the oldy days.

Fergawdsake - counting was one of the few things these
guys had going for them! And they certainly had the time:

If I have two and Isaac has three
I could have five if I murder Isaac
in his sleep. Might even get me one o' his
daughters while I'm at it.

ing savages!


~jwf~

I recently read somewhere (I wish I knew where so I could provide a link and more information) a hypothesis regarding Methusalah that posited that there was a mistranslation or confusion and that his culture used lunar cycles more than years which would put him into his 80's. Old, but not outragously so.

This is what part of the Kings List looks like which itself was a copy of other antiquated lists.

http://www.schoyencollection.com/babylonian_files/ms1686.jpg

As clear as dried mud?

Gilgamesh - Noah
Sargon - Moses

I'm inclined to think that both of these were probably common folklore motifs by the time the Bible was written. The Noah story as we have it today was, as said, almost certainly a product of the Babylonian exile, or even the following Persian period, but textually it's a rather clumsy stitching together of two versions of the story, which suggests, but doesn't prove, that the story came down to different pathways.
Traditional biblical scholarship has it that the two versions come one from each of the two Jewish kingdoms, which is possible but unproven, but over the course of a thousand years the story could have spread from Mesopotamia along the trade routes of the Fertile Crescent, as could the cultural practice of recounting genealogies. We really don't know.

Although, as you know, I'm of the opinion that the Exodus story is based on an actual historical event, there is no extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Moses. Even if he did exist, the baby in the basket story is almost certainly a later embellishment. It may well not even be true of Sargon.

Noggin