h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hatman, I do appreciate your later philosophy, but I do have to (most respectfully) differ with your initial reasoning

1) Given that the universe *does* exist, the chances are not minute, they're 100%. It might be possible to use some *property* of the universe to support or undermine an argument about its origins, but logically, it is not possible to use the mere *existence* of the universe to support any argument one way or another.

2) Hmmm - I can't really counter that one, though I thought Einstein said 'God doesn't *play* dice'?

3) It is the environment we evolved in - are we supposed to find it naturally repulsive?.

4) This is a commonly heard (even on h2g2) and most natural argument - the complexities and timescales involved, and the sheer physical extent of the planetary surface where evolution took place can and do stretch human comprehension up to and beyond the limit, but less so in my opinion than some great being sitting around for 4 billion years, letting evolution do most of the hard work but tinkering here and there as it felt like it. (Sort of a God-the-manager approach)

Getting down to logic, the existence of lifeforms capable of asking 'why are we here' is, by definition, required before such questions can be asked.
Whatever variable rate evolution works at, whatever fits and starts, whatever opportunuties and setbacks, it would have to have been going long enough to produce highly complex creatures before they could ask the big questions.
Since the production of such creatures is a side-effect of evolution, rather than a central goal, (as evolution *has* no goals) there will have been innumerable other avenues, (some surviving, some extinct) explored by evolution before such creatures do emerge.
It is therefore incredibly likely that by the time any creature produced by pure evolution develops real questioning intelligence, it will exist in world of evolutionary complexity so great that it *will* find it, at best, only partly comprehensible.
In fact, if the world were actually a much more lifeless place, the existence of animals as complex as humans could arguably be taken as evidence in favour of creation.

Also, there are an awful lot of things out there whose effect is entirely the opposite of protecting us, and any higher being even claiming responsibility just for the design of the human body would have a lot of questions to answer.

'So, great one, I was wondering, just why *did* you design human testicles with an operating temperature slightly lower than the rest of the body, what's all that business with the prostate gland about, why *is* the retina of the eye back to front, ....etc'?

Sure, the human body works pretty well (or else we wouldn't *be* here, of course), but no *way* is it divinely inspired. It's a definite engineering compromise, not a work of art. I happen to think it does have a certain beauty as well, particularly if it belongs to a breeding-age member of the opposite sex, but I think evolution can explain that well enough.

So, *if* we did arise entirely by evolution, we would be guaranteed to find ourselves in a universe that existed, and would be terribly likely to be surrounded by a highly complex web of life. It's also pretty unlikely that, if we had a developed a sense of aesthetics, we would find the natural world repulsive.

In the interests of balance, you could certainly say something similar starting 'If we were created...', but none of points 1,3,4 can logically be used in any meaningful kind of argument against pure evolution.

In fact, pure evolution is such a powerful theory, it can even be used to give a plausible explanation of why you don't entirely accept it. Wot a bargain, eh?

Mmmmmm.... 2 doesn't work either. The people who are losing are driven to cheat. It's a self preservation move. I don't personally cheat at RISK, but I've managed to role low a whole lot on those dice. You can imagine I lost. My strategy isn't all that good when dealing with uniform armies. RISK also favors the people who are doing well anyway (cards to trade in for armies are earned by those who took territory on their turn). A person who is on the defensive also roles only two dice, where attackers may role as many dice as they have armies. RISK favors a powerful attacker, not a cunning and/or weak defender.

I don't know if this point has been made or not, because i couldn't be bothered to read all the arguments, but here's my tuppence worth:

God does not exist. There, that's it. End of story. Religion is a concept used for controlling the masses, and for turning you against your fellow humans. How many wars would have been avoided in this world if it were not for religion?

Jesus is no more relevant to life today than anyone else born roughly 2000 years ago. Jesus did exist - this has been proved - and he was a very important leader in the fight against oppression for his people at the time. But he was no more the son of God than I am.

If you want to believe in God, then fair enough. I am all for 'live and let live', and would no more wish to tell you how to live your life than I would want you to tell me how to live mine. It is after all your decision. However, I am simply trying to point out that maybe the sooner all religions all over the world are abandoned, then maybe this little ol' planet of ours can start to live in peace, before the whole things gets destroyed.

If you want to do your bit for the human race, start saving the planet we've been killing for so many years before it's too late.

I totally agree with you there Austin Allegro. Well said that person.

p.s. I used to drive one of your name sakes a few years back in the 80's and early 90's - no relation I suppose? Or do you have legs instead of wheels?

Oh, I just thought it was a pretty 'inconspicuous' name. A pretty sad h2g2 reference, i know. Better put my anorak back on...

Speaking as an confirmed unbeleiver, I think a lot (though by no means all) of the evil done in the name of religion would probably have been done in the name of politics or nationhood if religions hadn't been around at the time. Though often religion is cited as a justification for brutality, I reckon it's frequently more of an excuse.

Personally, I think one of the most divisive aspects of religion can be the way that pressure to marry within the religion can artificially separate communities which otherwise have a great deal in common. I can't help thinking that if there had been a decent amount of interfaith marriage in Ireland over the last few hundred years, a great deal of tragedy could have been avoided.
It's an awful lot harder to demonise members of another group when some of them are also part of your family.

Presumably that's one reason why racists get so worked up about mixed-race marriages. The small, manipulative fraction of them that are actually smart enough to think aren't really worried about the purity of the race, it's the lessening of the ignorance, fear and hatred that they draw their power from that they're scared of.

Again I didn't read the long letters, but I have now so I'm on the ball
Potholer, I think I can answer number 2. People who don't cheat are generally 'glass half full' kinda people, they may get just as many shite hands, and rolls but it dusnee affect them as much. If people as losing they cheat, if they cheat they lose. Isn't that a chicken and egg kinda thang? And you missed one vital point, if you know they're cheating, they're obviously no good at the game at all.

Never having played Risk, I didn't want to comment outside my area of expertise.
4 billion years of Earth/life co-development, I'm happy with, but I wouldn't want people to think I thought I knew *everything* - they might start thinking I'm some sort of smartarse.

To further the "The after life is what you believe it should be" arguement Prachett wrote "this is why it is important to shoot missionaries on sight"

The entire Christian faith is based on the misinterpretations of the teachings of Jesus by a total outsider who never knew him in life, and never heard his name until after he passed on: Paul. Jesus was a real dude who had some valuable things to say, but if he were to walk the earth today, and hear what people are saying he said and did, he would get on the first tv show he could and ask the world "Where do you people GET THIS SHIT?!"

Potholer,

I take your point, about evil being just as likely to have stemmed from politics or national pride as it is religion. However, religion has this thing where it is *meant* to be voicing god's wishes. Consider which carries more clout in a god-fearing community - "Invade this country because you government orders you to", or "Invade this country because your god commands you, and if you do not you will go to hell".

It's a really screwed up situation, and it's still going on in a lot of countries in the world. Personally, I do not have a problem with people believing in a god, if it makes them feel more secure. It's the religions that really get me. If people really want to believe in a god, then there should be one god and one religion, otherwise the whole situation is a farce.

I remember a scene in Father Ted, when Dougal was adding to a list of things that do not exist. I can't remember what other things were on this list (I think one of them was Darth Vader..), but the one that really stood out to me, and I think really summed up the whole religious situation perfectly, was the item 'Non-Catholic Gods'. The writers of Father Ted had a lot of excellent points to make on religion (in particular catholicism) which they conveyed really cleverly. As did Bill Hicks (the funniest and most thought provoking comedian to ever live, in my opinion), but i'm not going to start reeling them off now (apart from possibly his point about If Jesus really does come back to Earth at some point, do you really think that he is going to want to see a load of people wearing crucifixes around their necks!??!).

God didn't invent religions, man did. The only message God wants us to spread is one of love. Love for everything.

Hello Babe, Still fighting the love crusade then!!! Cool!

Just a little question for everyone......Irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack of them what is the one thing in this world that you would like to see. (for the whole world)

My answer is that I would like to see the end of violence of any sort. No murder, no war, no beatings, no rapes, no muggings, no fighting no violence at all!

What would you all like to see??

No poverty, no starvation...Everyone getting along, helping one another..All we need is love.

'Vegetable Rights and Peace'

Ah, someone looking out for the poor vegetables. Good, I love them too.

To quite an extent, I agree.

If you *do* live in a god-fearing country, religion (with its inevitable political side) is going to be sufficiently influential to make it a convenient source of power for the power-hungry, and a very good cover/excuse for a great deal of nasty behaviour. Therefore, particularly in the past, when religion dominated politics almost everywhere, it was almost inevitably going to be involved in some way in most atrocities, as well as (presumably) a fair number of good deeds.
Even in a secular society, 'Invade this country because you'll be shot as a coward of you don't' carries a great deal of weight.

Additionally, there is definitely part of the average human psyche to which simple answers to difficult questions are appealing. Whether it's religion, fascism, communism or whatever, there are many people out there who do like to have someone doing their thinking for them, and, unfortunately, people who are willing to exploit that weakness for their own ends.

OK so three of us want peace. I guess that most of us want that right? The thing is that no matter what someones religion is they usually all strive for the same common goals eg. Peace, friendship, justice, less poverty/starvation. being good to each other etc.etc.etc. This is not a religious connection. I believe that human nature or perhaps conditioning has led us all to want the same things. Some of us try to get these things through religions, some through other ways. The one thing we all have in common is what we all wish.

Peoples personal beliefs should not be argued with unless they happen to directly envolve murder/ theft / rape etc. (ie. if its not hurting anyone then let it be).

In reality we all want the same things. It's just that we look to different sources for our inspiration. I think!

In summary........If we were all to forget about the differences in each others religions/non religions then we would probably discover that we actually have far more in common than we originally thought.

Anyone want a love cookie??

I would love a love cookie. We can wash them down with some bottled love. How ya doing, Monk. Did you get the sleep you needed?

I got loads of sleep 10 hours in fact. I have to shoot off now. sorry. Please get in touch with me tomorrow. Where can I get your E-mail from??

Love N big hugs

MB