h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>> I agree there'll soon be a point when we'll be unable to say anything to anyone if continues in the way it is doing. <<

It certainly seems that way sometimes. But then I start imagining that maybe all this PC madness is God's way of showing us who the really small minded people are. Avoid them.

In fact avoid anyone who has their mind that made up on any subject. It's actually a very virulent form of 'prejudgement' and the petty interjections of the PC crowd are really a sublimation of their own need to belittle and patronise others. Reformed smokers are even worse as they try to assuage their own fears by reminding smokers of the hell they inevitably face!

Most PC spokespeople have made a religion of their own hatreds and repressed rages. Over what, god only knows, and frankly I long since stopped caring.

It may seem we are being denied our cultural heritage and our traditional way of dealing with the strange and unknown. Humour and laughter at other people's expense is what got the English speaking people thru the last millenium of plagues, wars and world conquest.

In fact I believe god is really challenging us now to be more creative by becoming more sensitive and thoughtful in our expressions of suspicion, distrust and alienation (aka: caution, a survival trait). God told me so.


~jwf~ nutter, etc

>> If you can't have a conversation without calling people "nutters"...<<

Deidzoeb, as someone with several encounters with the world of the mentally ill and the emotionally ill (they are different) I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for your wife's condition. From my experience, my advice (which you haven't and probably aren't likely to ask for if you suspect me of being ironic or witty at your expense - which I assure you I am not in spite of the obvious 'cleverness' I displayed in several prior postings) is to listen to what those voices are saying, identify them and engage in a dialog with them. I am being serious and genuinely offering you the best advice I can. But that's perhaps off topic here and too real and serious a discussion for this thread. But I'd be happy and prepared to have it elsewhere.

Of course I agree that to call someone retarded or mentally ill is offensive. But a word like 'nuts', the way Americans use it to refer to anything surprisingly unpredicted, including anomalies of size, shape or logic, is relatively harmless. In the same way, nutter, the way the Brits use it is generally as innocent of any real malice as saying 'Oh you big goof.'

I recognize and appreciate your special sensitivity to these words but the case being argued here is that over-reaction will only lead to Walt Disney having to cleanse all references to Goofy as well as his masterful celebration of the early 20th century evolution a distinctive black individuality. As blacks struggled to create an identity and sense of style that is envied and emulated by whites, Disney imortalised the hipster and the zoot-suited jazzmen. That identity has simply passed from current fashion but to PC types it is now regarded as racial stereotyping and classics like Dumbo and the Song of the South are banned in America. Trust me, nutter is as innocent as 'goof' in the Disney Goofy way.

As kea almost said, "It ain't whatcha say, it's the way that you say it." Believe me, in the real world I can make a word like 'typist' sound like some lowsome and hateful thing that would bring tears to the eyes of the prettiest bimbo secretaries. With a sneer on my lips and a glint of flintiness in my eyes I could have them running to the boss with complaints of sexual harassment resulting in new management directives to henceforth refer to all 'executive assitants' as 'keystroke inputists'. But if I really wanted to insult some incompetent steno I could make any euphemism they chose sound like worthlessness personified.

It will always be a question of self perception and expectation on the recieving end and a question of intent on the part of the sender.
So it ain't what's said. But it is the way it is said, AND the way it is heard!

Anyway ya big goof, take care, and peace to you and yours,
~jwf~

Deidzoeb, post 75: "Part of your straw man through all this thread has been that making one of these perceived insults is unforgivable, even if a person didn't know it was just regional, or if it was misinterpreted by a reader... I don't think anyone here has made that argument, so we don't need to defend that point. What we've been trying to say is that if someone asks you to stop using a term as an insult, you're not damned for that behavior before the insult. If you really didn't know about it, then no one could hold it against you. After you know what it means to some people, after you've been asked to stop, and after you persist in using it, then you're acting anti-social."

So because you asked us, in Post 14, to reconsider the use of the word "nutter," that any further use of the word on this site is anti-social?

Post 76: "Different situations call for different behavior, which children understand long before they've been indoctrinated into the dangerous ways of Political Correctness."

Thank you for stating my point, finally. So if you agree with this statement, why are we having this argument? And how do you resolve this statement with your Post 14 complaint? The term "nutter" in the original post was certainly not used in a context to imply the clinically ill, so why do you read it as such? And how do you resolve the contradiction with "'Call obnoxious posters nutters or 'mentally ill' if you want to reveal how ignorant you are about real mental illness.'" in post 27?

Either you're oversensitive because you're going through a difficult time, or you're just arguing for the sake of argument. If it's the former, I hope you get through this as quickly and painlessly as possible. And talk to your wife... she seems to have a much healthier perspective on things than you've shown so far.

So far, the heated discussion has all been hypothetical talk about whether people ought to use "nutter" or "pansy" etc. I'm trying to get people to consider more carefully the words they toss around casually, and the discussion became heated because I felt you were dismissing the idea as PC nonsense. I think my point is valid.

'The term "nutter" in the original post was certainly not used in a context to imply the clinically ill, so why do you read it as such?'

I'm not trying to tell anyone they should be ashamed for what they've written on this board. I've been chastising the hypothetical person you keep defending who would persist in that kind of behavior.

'So because you asked us, in Post 14, to reconsider the use of the word "nutter," that any further use of the word on this site is anti-social?'

Yes, what I had planned was to devote the next several years of my life to constantly searching h2g2 for anyone who used the word "nutter." My new h2g2 nickname shall henceforth be "Hunter of Nutter-Mutterers".

No, maybe "nutter" is harmless to Brits. Maybe it's as harmless as "nuts" in the US. I guess that means we can keep each other company in the "just arguing for the sake of argument" club. That's like the pot calling the kettle a "cookware of color". Were you arguing for any other reason, planning to write "nutter" and "pansy" in a lot of upcoming discussions? You've been arguing for free speech and I've been arguing for civil speech enforced only by peer pressure. Shall we drop it now?

"And talk to your wife... she seems to have a much healthier perspective on things than you've shown so far."

By any chance are we now talking about my mental health? Very nice. Very classy. I should put on a bowtie to match the classy atmosphere.

Hi John,

Maybe Melinda will comment on how she has dealt with hearing voices. Don't take it personally if she ignores your advice, because you'll be in good company. She takes advice with a grain of salt even when it comes from a qualified doctor or psychiatrist.

"listen to what those voices are saying, identify them and engage in a dialog with them."

From the way she's described it, they're not always that organized. Sometimes they mumble, sometimes they shout conflicting things. Sometimes they repeat strange keywords like "RICE!" or "TOAST." Doesn't sound that menacing, but if you didn't know where the repeated word came from or what it was supposed to mean, almost anything might sound menacing.

I think the voices are probably internalized concepts of people she has known, family or friends or kids at school. You imagine what your parents would say about a tv show or a situation or something. That's fairly natural. Everybody thinks about that now and then. I think people with voices just have it more powerfully, and they can't shut it off.

Later,
Deidzoeb

""Then why did Subcom and yourself question 'nutter' and 'pansy' in the first place? Context clearly suggested that nutter didn't mean mentally ill, yet both of you suggested it wasn't an appropriate word to use, despite the fact that to those in the conversation it didn;t mean person with a mental illness."

That's why I asked about what "nutter" meant in the UK as my first post on this thread."

So you questioned it, (which is a perfeectly normal thing to do if you don't know what a word means), found it had bugger all to do with mental illness, why not just end of story?

"I don't agree that "pansy" is as innocent as you think. Did you even read that word in context on the Opinions on Iraq thread, or are you guessing at the context based on what I said?"

Neither. I was simply explaining what it means here, on this side of the world. Exchange of information, breaking down cultural barriers and thus enriching both. That sort of thing.

Deizoeb ,

I seem to have got you hot under the collar, and you've attacked me for my comment, but then stated exactly the point I was trying to make!

I agree that calling people 'mentally ill' or 'retarded' is offensive by any standard.

But nutter - I use and am using it as an affectionate term, for somebody who acts daft and humourous. You know that I'm not using it as a direct insult to your wife, nor as a reference to any mentally ill people, so as I try to be sensitive to you, could you also make an effort not to be insulted by anything I say that may remotely be related to something you take offence to? You know I don't mean it that way, and until I talk to you, I don't know what offends!

Don't think I'm explaining very well here!

I'm not going to stop using the word nutter in my own life, because I like it, my friends like it, and as I said, it's a term of humourous affection, in that ilk, I've never called George Bush a nutter (and thereby implying he is mentally ill for making his decisions), I have however said on many occasion that he's very stupid! If I was in a personal conversation with you, and you said "I think the word nutter is offensive to mentally ill people, please don't use it", I would stop. Like I and you both said - people who choose to carry on using these words in conversation with people they know it's causing genuine hurt, are those ignorant schmucks you spoke of.
But my point was also where do you stop? For instance, am I meant to stop using 'pansy' in all conversations in case it offends? Do I then extend that to other flowers?
Here, on the internet, there are so many people from so many different backgrounds that you're quite likely to offend somebody simply by calling them something silly like Window!

As some people choose to be ignorant and carry on using words that are insulting to another person they're in a conversation with, some people also Choose to take great personal offence at words mentioned which aren't meant in any way as an insult.

What I meant with "trying to be offended" is when people go completely over the top and take offence at pretty much anything you say (i.e. you being sarky with Blatherskite on his comment about your wife having a healthier perspective - I didn't read it as a comment about your mental health - I read it as your wife's perspective being healthier - but you chose to take the comment as directed personally to you! QED)

I would never use nutter as a word in relation to somebody who was actually mentally ill, because a) that would be offensive, and b) that's not what that word means to me.

My nan had a rough patch recently - visual hallucinations rather than audio. It's pretty rough when you've got a frail 70 year old trying to dive down the stairs to get away from the SAS men coming in through the ceiling, dodging the mangy cats, numerous 'little girls' on the way, not knowing how she's gonna get out cuz there's evil looking gypsy types in the garden etc. (Stopping details there cuz I'll and I'm at work!) I would never, ever, refer to her as a nutter. She was ill. There's a difference.

I commend you for sticking up for your wife so valiantly. You should also listen to her, take your guidance about what and what not to be offended by from her, because she really does know best, she's the one dealing with it.

As for comments like 'children would know' - you know nothing until you are taught - and you can never berate somebody for not knowing something, just because you see it as general knowledge. Just because a word is in general use as you see it, don't take it for granted that that is the case. As has already been shown - I could've caused great offence to some americans with comments like "I'm just nipping into the alley get meself a fag"! Without even realising it!



If anybody understands what I'm trying to get across, but can do it with far far less words, please do so!

Melinda - if you'll permit me to offer a - you sound very strong!

Queegle

"Are there any nutters on h2g2, people you should avoid chatting to,
unless you are feeling brave, LOL. Have the ACEs a secret list of nutters, LOL."

In the context of this, the original post on this thread, the use of the word 'nutter' is intended to identify people onsite who should be avoided, unless you feel brave.

Suggesting perhaps that to talk to a 'nutter' is to take one's life in one's hands a little, presumably because 'nutters' are dangerous even to talk to.

Obviously this is the point at which you decide whether the label applies to you. Today I don't, but that's because I don't honestly feel like that sort of nutter. That said, I do have mental health problems, and that's where the conversation went, so clearly there is an assumed connection, or we'd be talking about Carnies or something.

The point I want to make is that the beginner of this thread wanted to see who, in the eyes of the community, can be identified as somehow 'wrong', tagged, objectified, put to one side and avoided. That they chose to use the 'nutter' label implies there being a line beyond which someone's behaviour is 'nuts' or 'nutty' and beyond which they cease to be worth talking to.

This line this person wants to draw across a virtual community is the same line that divides our species on the grounds of race, gender, sexual orientation, belief and so on, and fences off a section of the population which has no commonality, except by whatever you personally consider the definition of a 'nutter' - which here is supposed to be 'not worth talking to'. Nutter can be synonymous with Freak, Psycho, Loon, however you take those epithets.

In many instances it can be a term of endearment - reclamatory or otherwise, I often call my friends nutty or some similar gesture of ribaldry. One of my friends calls me a 'mentalist' which I find intensely amusing because I know it's meant with affection. The use of nutter in the above message is clearly not.

The mental illness aspect is neither here nor there; the objectification is present, and I *thought* in such enlightened times as we are supposed to be in, we were past objectifying human beings on the grounds of their weakness or general 'wrongness' until they have proven themselves guilty of some crime.

I have long been vocal about my illness here, not always to great degrees of cogence. Despite that I remain here and continue to chat, though I'm not spoken to that often - it used to upset me that I felt so out of the loop, but I haven't the investment in 'The Building' that I used to. It's just something to do in the library between my work shifts.

1 in 4 people will experience a mental or emotional illness in any given year. They will have depression, manic depression, psychosis, schizophrenia, all sorts of things. They will cope with voices, paranoia, moodswings and such. Many will fight suicidal urges and some will not. Whichever way of looking at it we're talking about people who are ill to one or other degree. And we're talking about it on a website which organises meet-ups all over the globe mostly for the express purpose of drinking too much. I'll see your 'nutter' and raise you 'co-dependent'.

You say tomayto and I'll say tomahto, and one day hopefully we'll realise that life sucks, people suffer for it, and no-one is under any obligation to cope with it in silence, or put up with being cast aside on specious grounds based on the meaning of a single word. We are multi-dimensional beings, and all have a mind, a heart, and a soul.

Thanks for speaking up Melinda, and I wish you and Dayjob the best of strength, luck and happiness ahead. I was diagnosed Schizoaffective at one time, 6 months or so before a psychiastrist recognised PTSD. I hope the label, which in itself can't do wonders for your self esteem, won't interfere with your defense of your rights as a human being.

"What I'm saying is even crazy people like to be asked."

Nicole Kidman as Virginia Woolf (sufferer from bipolar and literary icon) in the Oscar nominated film 'The Hours' which I recommend to all.

So. Are we agreed that words themselves are not inherently offensive and viewing them as such is foolishness?

The original post also had..LOL..(Laugh Out Loud)..twice..I don't believe it was not meant as an insult to anybody..anywhere..I took it as a humerrous question....

Emmily

There is an old and very wise saying, that "sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me'.
Hey, you! Put down that stone!
Oi, you with the stick!

Be glad, be very very glad, that the "Service Was Not Available" for a couple of hours late last night. I had written a very long and rambling post, inspired by god of course, in which I had started singing Bob Dylan songs to sweet Melinda. After two hours of refreshing and refreshments it all just went poof.
Just as well.
Glad we've had this little chat!

~jwf~

Subcom: Considering how little civility you've displayed in this conversation, I invite you to stop and go away. You're the only one in this conversation who has casually tossed around insults.

Begone, little man.

Your assumption that I am arguing for free speech without civility is a deliberate distortion, too. Learn how to conduct yourself in an argument before you engage in your next one.

Hi queeglesproggit,

Sorry I overreacted to your post, maybe to this whole thread. I know you didn't say anything meant to be an insult, but that line about "Why waste your time trying to be offended" sounded like I had no right to my feelings.

Hope your nan is doing better.

>> Begone, little man. <<

Oh my! That lowered the level.

Didja ever notice how when people 'lose it' and ventilate their anger and frustration they tend to overstate their case. They exaggerate for emphasis and usually get their facts wrong. I did that myself recently in the War on Iraq thread when I poured out a stream of scathing blather.

Here in this example we see Blatherskate's need to diminish or belittle Deidzoeb. By calling him a 'little man' he wants to create an image of someone small enough to ignore, someone who can be overlooked as one might dismiss some dumb kid or a some hormonely challenged weakling.

Trouble is that many of us know that Deidzoeb is not a little man in the sense it was intended. So on purely informational grounds I feel it necessary to correct this impression. While I have never met Deidzoeb, seen pictures or even heard a physical description, my own intuitive impulse was to call him a BIG Goof (above).

Funny how size matters... or shapes the impression we have of people.

I unconsciously attribute largeness and largesse to Deidzoeb because my experience is that he has a big brain, a big heart and a big vocabulary. He may well be a 'little person' in real life but that would not change my sense that he is bigger and better than most of us. At least in ways that really matter.

*No insult to children, dwarves, midgets, mental defectives or people from Belgium or any other small and defenseless country was intended by these remarks *


~jwf~

The level was already low. Count the number of times he has implied that anyone who would argue with him was an asshole that would preserve the rights of the obnoxious over the civil example he purported to offer. If his behavior in this thread is the example, I choose not to follow.

As the immortal philosopher once said, "I've had alls I can stands, and I cain't stands no more." - Popeye

I know the guy is going through a hard time right now, and I can understand the over-reaction. But that isn't enough to justify a total abandonment of civility over the course of a couple days.

The sense I meant to convey was that of a small-minded, mean-spirited man. It is not meant to diminish his stature nor his intellect, but merely to point out that his behavior here has been beneath him.

Well said. And it needed to be said.

>> The sense I meant to convey was that of a small-minded, mean-spirited man. <<

You have certainly achieved that.

~jwf~

It is nice though that although some of us get hot under the collar and start posting blistering comments, we can also chill out and end up being more civil to each other

Maybe that also is a bonus of the internet, in that we go away from our computers, calm down and then come back with a more thought out argument (some of the time!). As ~jwf~ said, he was all ready to rant the word of God if the service had let him! If these conversations had been happening in RL, they'd probably finish with a punch-up!

Now lets all have a and sing kum-by-ya JOKE!

Deizoeb - thanks for the , I'll put it in the pile I get to scoff after Lent!
Nan's on an experimental drug, and prefers the moniker 'guinea pig'* to anything else! We've all got tough stuff to deal with at some point or another, at those times you gotta ignore the stupid little things and make the most of the good stuff!

In a vague attempt to go back to the topic() - there's nobody on here I think I'd actively avoid getting into conversations with, there are a very few blinkered minority that I don't bother with, but the complete idiots tend to fade away, cuz nobody bothers with them!

Queegle


* no offence intended to guinea pigs, their relatives, or any person that may bear a resemblance to guinea pigs (love these little disclaimers!)

Does anyone else get quite stressed with being expected to be civil *all the time*?