h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

And the offspring is hulking monstrosities.

Actually, DNA said it himself that the Darwin redemption isn't a myth. He didn't like it of course.

A martyr actually has a great deal of effect on people. The sheer weight of belief in something, enough that you'd be willing to die for it, causes a great deal of curiosity. Your example of a criminal has a few flaws. First off, a Christian, in those days, offered equality for all people, rich or poor. They offered peace, love, salvation, fellowship. A death row inmate would only offer you a knife in the throat. No one is going to be moved to join the death row inmate, because there is no reason that we could ever want.
Christianity had appeal. Now, other religions have the same appeal. But, just like a math problem can be close to right, none of them can offer true salvation. Some may come close to what is needed, but without belief that we have been forgiven, it is worthless.

Religion isn't a belief. Religion is God's way of telling us how things are. We simply choose to ignore that, and God's law that is written on each of our hearts. That law is the little voice that tells you murder is bad, stealing is wrong.

But Christians are and were often not good people. Just look at the spanish inquisition. So many horrors, done in the name of God. No, Christians are just as flawed as normal people. And that, I truly regret.

Ok, but I heard it from another source. I will examine it further. Although if true it says more about Darwin and the society of the time than about Christianity or folk in general.

What about those on death row who are actually innocent? Don't be oversimplistic. Plenty support them, and rightly so! They are not all systematic psychokillers who would knife randomly, either. And I would support even those because I think it's a feeble way to deal with them.
Some martyrs have that effect- I get choked up thinking about Ridley & Latimer, for instance- whereas others, those killed to 'set an example' rather than because their faith was outstanding, would be mostly ignored except by those they knew (who likely shared their beliefs.)
Think of public executions- had no discernible effect on pre 20th century crime rates. In 'those days', which could be anything from pre-Roman to Tyburn era, executions were for all sorts of things and death was not exclusively for Christians. It was a common way of dealing with things so I doubt it would have been viewed as exceptional.
I don't think this is the thread for evangelising. (Wondered how long it'd be... ) I have found a belief system that offers me everything I *need*, and I am both satisfied and comfortable with it. I have a deep suspicion of *anything* (outside maths) that presents itself as The Only Way, since in life- our best guide- nothing works like that.

Look, I was offered Christianity. For years it was the only belief system I knew about. Yet, even though I could only think in terms of God and his majesty etc. when I looked at the uplifting sights of a rainbow or sunbeam through mist, I couldn't reconcile it with the Christian deity.

I have heard that one before- God is your conscience etc. Well, I am not 'ignoring' that, because there is nothing compelling me to become a Christian. It wasn't an internal decision that Christianity was all well and good, but just not for me; it was a long process, excuse me but you are denigrating that by telling me I'm just ignorant.
I know that stealing is bad and murder is bad because they go against my personal moral code. They do this because I know the *reasons* why they're wrong, and because I reason thus that they go against my conscience. Not because I am compelled to by God. No little voice is telling me to worship your deity, and when I ignore my conscience I get merry hell- no sign of that here. I am, by my own ethics, a moral person. By yours I probably fall short. However, your conscience cannot and should not tell me what to do.
If that was 'how things are', and we all knew it, we would *know* that women should be submissive to their husbands and homosexuals punished, and there would have been no movement on those fronts.
The Spanish Inquisition was more of a xenophobic social control by the slightly overworked King than a religious calling.
Christians are no better than normal people. For that I am truly thankful.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mandragora, to suggest to non-christians that they are ignorant is extremely offensive, bigoted and narrow-minded.

People sometimes try and tell me that I'm immoral because I'm not Christian (i'm an atheist), but I'm not violent, abusive, racist, homophobic, prejudiced or any of the other things that *I* consider to be immoral- when you align your moral compass, I for one condsider it far more sensible to make judgements based on the effect my actions might have on other people. If what I do hurts someone- it's immoral, wrong. if what I do doesn't harm anyone, i consider it a reasonable thing to do.

I would rather make judgements based on my own sense of right and wrong than based on what i might get cast into the fires of hell for.

My family are Christian, with some German Jewish blood in from earlier in the century, and yet i rejected both of those faith systems as I didn't believe them, or any others. I reached an informed decision. To refer to people like me as ignorant is incredibly offensive.

Absolutely. To base your moral code on what someone tells you is Right, rather than what you reason and feel to be correct, is truly ignorant.
That is why teachers can get away with 'You can't do that because I say so.' because children aren't allowed to ask. Humans need reasons.

*nods agreement*

My family are agnostic btw though nominally Christian in that my parents attended church as children, and we possess a Bible. However church attendance then was more or less de rigeur. I prefer it now that only people who want to go do, which means the place isn't so cluttered up with those obliged to.

It was however forced on me at school, which was non-religious but contained prayer assemblies, hymn practices and religious visitors. If you did not take part you were told off (apart from being a JW, o'course.) I once got a telling statement from one of them, when I asked how they reconciled their beliefs with when their religion (or those acting in its name) did wrong- "We're just doing what Jesus told us to all those years ago. We don't make our own decisions."

I think that is very sad.

At my high school, the assemblies weren't overtly religious, except for the occassional hymn. The classes were, however, supposed to have prayers at least once a week. My form tutor was a Physics teacher, however, and argued that as *he* wasn't Christian and several of the children probably weren't, was there much point? he just used the theory that if you want to pray, feel free to pray in your spare time, but it shouldn't be forced on children in school.

My sister is actually a catholic school teacher. I've been trying to persuade her to change the system from within, but she's havinbg none of it. Ah well.

Actually, I'd like your opinion on something. And, if I've offended you, I didn't want or mean to. The fact that you are even reading what I say is a complement to me, and you are both obviously not ignorant. Anyway, my question is, do denominations make any sense to you? At all?

Its gotten so bad that in my town, people believe that if you're not prodistant, you're going to Hell.

Oh, and you're right. Christianity shouldn't be forced. When has any subject ever ment anything to someone who was forced against their will to learn about it?

I won't harp at you guys (or gals) any longer. If you do want me to harp, well, you're right, as this isn't the place. If you really want to know a better version of what I'm trying to say, well, check out C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" a very nice, book that uses clear analogies on an incredibly convoluted topic.

I've got to say i get confused by denominations- especially the kind of rivalry you get in (for example) Northern ireland. Two groups involved in a religious war despite the fact that they both worship the same god, but just interpret the bible in different ways.

So do you think I'm justified in saying that we (as the Christians) should drop the denomination stuff? I mean, heck, nearly all the ritualistic stuff we have is all man-made, and not even mentioned in the Bible...

Yes, I don't see reasons that slightly differing interpretations of the same religion can't all be accomodated together.

Thank you. I need to find more people who agree with me on that...

I think it's probably easier to agree if, like me, you are outside the church. Some of those inside a particular denomination may have stronger feelings, I don't know.

You are right there. Christians have forgotten a lot, as we've been far too wrapped up in our own self-righteousness...

I noticed accusations of "ignorance" earlier in the thread. Surely, pedantically speaking, the only truly ignorant are those brought up in a single faith (or lack thereof) and never being given the opportunity to see or explore other options...?

Surely if we're being pedantic, true ignorance can only be achieved by dying before you experience anything at all? Once you've had even the most minor experience, you can no longer be truly and completely ignorant.

Gamma irradiation within ten nanoseconds of conception ought to do the trick.

Isn't pedantry a useful and constructive debating tool?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"Isn't pedantry a useful and constructive debating tool?"

No Mystrunner, you are non-offensive (you would have to go a /lot/ further- I would like to keep up the discussion we were having, though). I agree about denominations. I have encountered people who of course think that their denomination is the Only One, and all others are heresies. However, often it's not enough to be of the same group as them, you have to confirm to some ultra-strict standards; hence only a small percentage of their denomination, even, will be saved. And they can always come up with a Biblical justification or even 'instruction' for this.
What do you think of the idea that it's no use for the 'unsaved' to read the Bible, since it makes no sense to us? I have been told that I will only understand certain bits but the rest I will have no hope of understanding until I get saved, which will presumably confer greater language skills upon me...

In truth, the Bible is rather confusing for most people (though not all would admit it). Firstoff, it was written for the common folk of the day, and meanings have changed vastly over time. Second, language differences, translation, etc. also causes havoc. There are over I think twenty different meaning to 'love' like, love for a brother, love for a friend, love for a wife, love for... whatever.