h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Sorry responding to Geoffs ,I believe, quote and question to me.

Yeah - I was putting the question about Catholics to my roommate, and she gave me a similar answer. She was raised Pentecostal/Southern Baptist, and she said that not only would some Baptists/Pentecostals think only like minds were correct, but that only the people in their CHURCH were correct, and even then they were suspect.

Which I find, to be honest, as pure and simple egoism. No different than Jehovah's Witnesses who believe *only* 144,000 will get into heaven. Yeah. Right.

I think in certain realms there *are* no answers - why did God even bother to create beings He knew would cross us? Why didn't he just destroy evil when it started when Satan fell? Why did redemption require a blood sacrifice?

I don't know. I know there is a reason, but (and I'm sure Sat will yell at me for this) I truthfully don't need to know it. some people do. For my faith, it's not necessary. That doesn't mean I am adverse to thinking about it, but that I accept them as unknowns that I will eventually understand at some point. They don't bother me *that* much.

And if that's a weakness in my personality or belief system, so be it.

I don't yell at anyone. That's uber-rude. I have been in a rather mellow state all week. Might not be next week though so beware

It's your choice whether you want to think about a certain aspect or not. But it does make me uneasy that you would rather let yourself be ignorant than find out something that might disrupt your values. But that is your decision to make.

It's not a question of being ignorant. No-one *knows* the answer to questions such as those posed by Amy: "why did God even bother to create beings He knew would cross us? Why didn't he just destroy evil when it started when Satan fell? Why did redemption require a blood sacrifice?" - although they may postulate answers.

Most religions (the ones I know about anyway) don't attempt to answer every question. Instead they ask that you have faith. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, they are essentially about faith not about answers. And unanswerable questions are not the preserve of the religious. Even atheists occasionally ask "why are we here?"

Hi Abbi,
I'm glad you no longer think I'm JtP

You seem to have a problem with me accusing people of not thinking; why is this? As I posted earlier, my observation is based on many, many discussions with a variety of people over the years and I stand by it. To say "well that's a bit rude for my tastes" doesn't really detract from the point, does it? It would just as easy for me to get offended by your apparent view that it's unacceptable to present an argument that (whether based in real-life experience or not) might make others uncomfortable. And in truth, it *is* a little irritating that you take this standpoint; we're all grown ups, aren't we?

By the simple fact that they are thinking and engaging on this thread, people here are not included amongst those I am criticising. So how can this be about any personal insult or rudeness? Again I say it; I have no problem with those who have actively chosen a belief. I don't agree with them, but I've no problem. What I dislike are those who have persist, from habit, with some vague notion of being a Christian because...er...well... they don't really know and they've been going since they were kids and isn't it a lovely stained glass window and Did Those Feet, In Ancient Time....

I used to feel like that, in the days following my rejection of christianity and the Roman Catholic Church. Now I'm not so sure. Religion is a comfortable, reassuring thing. Who are you - or who am I - to tell someone that that comfort is not available unless they believe *properly*!? Would Jesus say that to them, d'you think? I think not.

The rise in christian-bashing is real, IMO, and has two reasons.

1. The christian church used to be protected by the respect (fear?) of the people, and by the law (remember the one Mary Whitehouse exhumed in her fight against the infamous gay-Jesus poem?). This is no longer the case.

2. Christian fundamentalists - at least as dangerous as any other brand of fundamentalist - are wielding significant political influence these days. They must be opposed (i.e. balanced) by the right-minded majority if our political course is not to become skewed as a result.

For the record, I am *not* a lapsed Catholic, despite what the Vatican says. I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith, which I observed until I was fifteen. Now I am a pantheist. It suits me much better.

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

"By the simple fact that they are thinking and engaging on this thread, people here are not included amongst those I am criticising"

OK .I really misunderstood then! You say we (on this thread) were *not whom you were refering to*. If thats the case, I was way off base! That would be WRONG of me.

I will re-read the posts. I noticed yesterday I did miss one section.I could have seen it out of context. I promise to read it all again later today, when I have more time. Sorry for the delay,wish I could do it now!

"...Who are you - or who am I - to tell someone that that comfort is not available unless they believe *properly*!? ..."

Who am I? Who do I have to be? I'm a thinking adult with a lawful right to express an opinion on any damn topic I choose. They don't have to listen, do they?


"...Religion is a comfortable, reassuring thing...."

- so was my Paddy Panda Teddy when I was 6. His influence in the grand scheme of things turned out to be sadly limited.

The human abilities to reason, think, question and explore are the *only* things that have allowed us to evolve to where we are (and hopefully further). Anything that dulls those abilities, that takes the edge off intellect and stifles individuality... well it just gets under my skin. And *unthinking* religious observance gets under my skin more than most things. It's not good for the species, and we are *ALL* capable of more than that.


"What would Jesus say" -

Well, according to Revelations, He will say "For you are neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, and I will spew you out of my mouth".

Not quite the comforting reassurance they'd be expecting, huh?

I tried to post this earlier but the servers hiccuped...

In reply to G and S - it's only ignorance if you don't know you don't know. I don't know - and at the moment, it doesn't *particularly* bother me; I still search for answers but not with the bloodlust some people seem to - knowing the answer will not change my view, only expand it.

As Socrates would say - a wise person is one who knows what they don't know and doesn't pretend to. Not that I'm necessarily a wise person - but do you see my point?

Warning - lots of "knows" in this post... read s-l-o-w-l-y...

If you know that you don't know, and are actively looking for answers:- then good luck to you.

If you know that you don't know, and don't care to speculate:- cool.

If you don't know that you don't know, then there's 2 reasons I can see. Either:-

a) You don't know that you don't know because you think that you DO know, in which case you're a very dangerous zealot who needs to keep the Hell away from me OR...

b) You don't know that you don't know because you have the self-awareness of the average whelk. Some people are a waste of perfectly good organs.

To summarise - if you know that you don't know, then you're probably alright.

If you don't know that you don't know, then you need help of some kind.

What was the question again?

Don't people say 'ignorance is bliss'?

Oh and what about people who don't know that they don't know & don't speculate either? Does it really matter so long as they're harmlessly living their lives?

Well there are those who are of the opinion that you'd need to be God in order to judge others....



You forgot emotions. These are now considered a necessary faculty for a conscious being. They provide motivation, apparently.

Not ALL of us are as capable as you think, Geoff. But ALL are entitled to believe - or indeed to worship *sans* belief - as they wish, n'est ce pas?

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

I would like to inject a metaphor of my own into the ignorance thingywotsit.

Why search for fish in a rock pool, when you have a whole ocean to look in?

"...Well there are those who are of the opinion that you'd need to be God in order to judge others..." - nah,just presumptious!

"...Not ALL of us are as capable as you think, Geoff. ..." - I do not accept that; not in this context. OK, not everyone has an IQ of 148 (like wot I do ), but the question "Do I actually believe this stuff?" isn't that difficult.

"...ALL are entitled to believe - or indeed to worship *sans* belief - as they wish..." - of course, just as I am entitled to ridicule them for doing so.

Teasswill asked what the problem was as long as these people were harmlessly living their lives. Well... I'd like to say that irritating me was a sin worthy of death, but it isn't. But, it must be said that just because something is harmless doesn't necessarily make it inoffensive.

Ok. Finally , I can get back here! What a hootoo day. The most I could see was -1 reasearcher online I wonder who that was

Read the whole thingee again. WHEW I did attribute one post to you that was not yours and I missed one on the same page.

Together with the fact you were NOT talking about the folks on this thread being *unthinking* ~~ Which was THE prime insult in my mind about myself and others.

I apologize for being wrong, in my accusations of you. You were more fair in this discussion than I gave you credit for! I am sorry. Shake?

Abbi,
Shake.

Friends

So....do we disagree or not? Mwah ha ha ha ha, the argument goes on!

Geoff

"shake"



Sorry. It only serves to remind me of the non-hand "shake" in everyday society.

*watches the forum grind to a dead halt*

Aww, guys, this isn't any fun.

Shall I say something provocative then?