h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Welcome back Caleb. I think there are a lot of people here who would like if you could explain what and why you believe this a bit more.

where did i ever say that you go to hell for "finding love in the arms of the wrong person" even if you have jesus in your life!!!!!
in fact this is the exact oppisite of what i am trying to say, what i am saying is that if you DON'T have jesus you wil go to hell reguardless!!!!! what i am saying that if you are a christian who has strayed to the reaches of homosexuality, there is a way to be forgiven. i'm not saying that gay christians won't get into heaven, but they will have to be held accountable for their sins. we are al saved through the grace of god if we ask for it. just like if you go to macdonalds. you don't get the "big mac" unless you ask for it. the only difference is the gift of salvation is free!!!!!!! heaven is like a members only club in the sence that you have to have a membership card to get inside. you get this card when you accept christ as our savior, and after that point you never loose your card.there is only one "unforgivable sin" that is the sin of blastifimy, or not answreing the door of your heart, the bible says "behold i stand at the door and knock as your best friend and if you answer the door of your heart i wil come in" incase you can't tell the speaker is jesus christ


sounds like a sweet deal, right? my only question when it comes to this point is , WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS "FREE GIFT" OF SALVATION??????????

caleb

there is no hell. i can say this with utter, utter certainty. even if there is a God, there is no hell.

what makes you say this?

>they will have to be held accountable for their sins. we are al saved through the grace of god if we ask for it.

I thought the whole ppoint of the cross was that you didn't have to be accountable for sins as long as you accepted God.

>sounds like a sweet deal, right? my only question when it comes to this point is , WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE ACCEPT THIS "FREE GIFT" OF SALVATION??????????

I don't feel the need for it, seeing as I don't believe in the underlying story.

To me, the concept of original sin is absurd. When we wrote the Consitituion, we outlawed the concept of being guilty because of the crimes of your ancestors. This is a document that endorsed slavery. I don't know if I can accept a god who makes up rules that they absndoned in the 18th Century.

Part of my problem with the whole deal is that God is supposed to be perfect, yet he seems to keep changing his mind. Here's this covenant, no now follow this one. Some of his ideas as expressed in the Bible are pretty barbaric. If he's meant to be perfect, I expect a high quality literal document of faith. The Bible isn't it.

Actually the best thing to do is become a Roman Catholic.
That way you can live the most depraved, hypocritical life (If you're a priest you can even get away with paedophilia for decades, with your bishop protecting you from the consequences) and then you can go to confession on your deathbed, say three Hail Marys and ascend straight to heaven.

Personally I'm prepared to accept the consequences for my sins, rather than find some convenient fiction that will allow me to weasel out of them.


An ye harm none, do as ye will.

Ridiculing or bashing gays certainly leads to self-hatred and suicide - the figures are pretty horrifying for young men. And it's adding insult to the ever-present injury of having to repress the way you feel. The consequences of this last century were the most dire imaginable - at least if you believe the findings in 'Hidden Hitler'.



It's all too easy to point out inconsistencies in the Bible:

Leviticus 18:21 - "You shall not lie with a man. It is an abomination."

A few verses down - "You shall not eat shellfish. It is an abomination."

Note that only one of these applies to Christianity. Criticising the Bible is all very well, but suspicion of homosexuality is likely to exist in any culture that reproduces itself (most gays have straight parents, as the old joke goes). And, the more aggressive cultures tend to win more wars...

Rabbi Lionel Blue defined anti-Semitism as "hating the Jews more than necessary", and may well have thought similarly about homophobia. I think the most that can be expected is equality under law and tolerance (rather than acceptance) from the majority of the population.

If you have problems with the concept of a god (as I do), and with the concept of sin (as I do), not to mention major problems with the concept of guilt and redemption (as I do), then this does not look like a sweet deal. It looks like a fantasy game with an imaginary friend.

I am not saying that is IS a fantasy game with an imaginary friend. I am explaining to y'all why it looks like that way to me.

Ben

Here's a formal statement of a fairly obvious argument. How do you respond to this, Caleb? Either way, you end up admitting something rather uncomfortable.

Some people are born into families that are religious, and are brought up to be Christians. Some people are born into other faiths. Some people are born into families with atheist parents. Some people are born into societies where there is very little or even no Christianity at all. Some people were born *before* Jesus was. Some people have a greater access to Christianity than others.

Now, it seems that some people have what we might call a "head start" towards heaven, if the entrance criteria is really as Caleb thinks it is - that is, accepting the bible. This isn't fair, in an important sense. There isn't (to use one of my favourite expressions) a level playing field.

So either...

1. God is being very unfair, and is therefore not the great and good being we all thought he was, or,

2. God is rather less concerned with what you believe than how you behaved, given the example you were set and the society you grew up in. Did you love your neighbour as yourself, or give it your best shot? If yes, then welcome aboard - atheist, Christian, agnostic, Jew, Muslim, etc etc etc. (this is my tentative personal view).

3. We are reincarnated over a number of lives and our "average" rate of progression towards Christianity is what counts.

4. There is some weird non-logical way out of this whereby God can still be good, but act in an aritbrary and unreasonable manner.

Which do you think, Caleb (anyone?) Or have I missed an option?

Otto
(philosopher, out to offend no-one)

Isnt' there some sort of an out if you're ignrant of the gospel. I thought that if you didn't know about the proper path to redemption you weren't held to the same standard. If you knew and then didn't except it, you're screwed.

I don't know. Theology is not my bag. Fantasy games are. I'm looking for a D&D group.

no hell. heres the deal:

1) God is all good
2) God loves us
3) We sin
4) Hell is a place of eternal torment
5) If God loves us and wants us to do good, he doesnt like our sin.

eternal torment is not remidial. its just endless pain. therefore its pointless pain. therefore the God who provides hell is a sadist, therefore either God is not good, or God does not have a hell.

Has anyone noticed how Christianity/catholicism and so-on are terribly specific about what goes on in hell but awfully sketchy about the other place?

Is this because it's easy to guess what 99% of the population won't like, but impossible to please everyone at once with adverts of the forthcoming delights of Heaven?

Hell >>Bloody awfull - you'll be bunged into a lake of fire, have forks prodded into your bottoms and have to do all sorts of tedious nasty stuff.

Heaven >>Candy floss anyone? Forever?

Well, we really only have God's word for him being good. And if we try and judge him we get kicked out of the paradise. So there is a Hell.

The whole Christian deal is taken from a book which has been revised many, many times. If you want to be a christian then fine, but what does this book have to do with it?

I have read much better books, the bible is contridictory, unnessarily cruel, condones all sorts of illegal thing etc etc.

What about those of us who just want to try to life good lives? I'm a Druid, I live as well as I can, Druids were here long before christianity was imported from the middle east, and yet I am told that I will go to hell for my beliefs?

Makes no sense, thats probably why people don't go for the free deal of salvation, AOL cds are also free, but thats no reason to trash your computer.

Just because something is free, it doesn't make it good.

xanatic, that logic doesnt scan, you fool.

Hell has all the best musicians. Who wants to play a harp for all eternity?

You could always join the choir.

Been there, done that. How much plainsong can you stomach?

They wouldn't have me.
As long as it's a blues harp I don't mind tho', LG. All the blues boys are going to the other place anyhow...

Fairy nuff. Would an autoharp count? Or an Appalachian Dulcimer?