h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I suspect the Afghani women will not be lining up to buy Nike sportswear and swimwear any day soon.

Perversly, (at least to some not very bright Westerners) they still prefer to wear traditional clothing.

Lets try this bit again...

(at least to some not very bright people who, in the main, work for Western media organisations)

Actually, I saw a documentary about what Afghani and Saudi and other muslim and Arabic women wear under their traditional clothing. They have fashion shows and they use makeup. They just don't show it in public because it is immodest. They show it at home to other women.

There was a time, before the most recent round of backwards goonery, when educated and employed women throughout the world had many things in common. It is the stupidity of men throughout the world that they believe in religions that put women at the same level as cattle and furniture.

If the Northern Alliance or whoever is in control at the moment is not just another color of the same old stupidity, then I wouldn't be a bit suprised to find the Afghani women, once they've regained their property, assets and influence, buying a lot of things they haven't done in a while.

Warning: What follows is Sarcasm!

You want to oppress a woman? Stop her from shopping!

Warning: That was Sarcasm!

Yeah, those trials after WWII was not done by a single country. It was done by several. But they all had one thing in common, they were not impartial.

And you can't exactly call the Nurenberg trials a success can you?

Anyone wanting to know more about the Nuremberg trial should check out the TV mini-series Nuremberg. It revisits the post-war tribunal that saw 21 members of the Nazi high command tried for war crimes.

Besides starring as US prosecutor Robert Jackson, Alec Baldwin also co-produced, but don't let that put you off - this is a powerful and serious treatment. Much of the dialogue comes from court transcripts and gruesome concentration camp footage is presented as evidence. Other stars include Brian Cox (scene-stealing as Hermann Goering), Max Von Sydow and Christopher Plummer, but the historical magnitude of the event overshadows all actors.

This was to be "a trial of superior morality", as Jackson said, rather than a show trial in which guilty verdicts were inevitable and assumed; thus the trial sought the motivations for atrocities rather than simple condemnation.

Herbert Knaup plays Albert Speer, who denied direct knowledge of the Holocaust but assumed personal responsibility, therefore avoiding execution. In 1977, Speer said that the Nuremberg trial "stands for me still as an attempt to break through to a better world".

Of course, the thought now occurs to me, this segregation of prisoners will give other hijackers, hostage-takers and bombers a clear objective, won't it? Free the Guantanamo 100!

I think the DOD made a mistake telling anyone where they were or that they had them at all.

When the prisoners arrive in Cuba their beards are shaved (contrary to their religious beliefs)

Is that OK?

I hadn't heard that.
Of course, it would make them easier to identify if they've been photographed in the past.
On the other hand, if it is a humiliation thing, that would be typical. And the military mind does hate beards.
I doubt if it is a religious slap. They gave them Korans and they are feeding them according to the dietary tradition.
The Red Cross is supposedly going to make a visit soon, along with some British representatives. We'll see what they see.
I would be terribly unhappy if these guys became celebrities.

Have you noticed these guys seem to be predominantly foriegners? It appears that the US has classed non-Afgans as unlawful combatants - though that is just my interpretation of the situation at the moment (ie of the first 20 i find three are British and One Austrailian.

I was merely using the Nurenberg Trials to show that there is precedent.

I know. There's this guy who's worn a beard all his adult life, so we'll forcibly shave it off to aid identification.

I have worn a beard more years than not, but if you shave me and compare with pictures taken when I was in the military or licensed as a security guard, you will recognize me.
Don't be fooled, these guys are not all mountain tribesman. Many of them are college-educated sons of middle class families in the UK, France, Algeria and even Afghanistan. They have not always had those beards. And remember, the Taliban was famous in the beginning for being mainly composed of young 'scholars' or students of their particular brand of Islam. Some of these 'boys' had been in trouble with the Afghani police before they became 'holy' fighters.
When you are dealing with an area that has had most photography and identity documentation curtailed for a decade...

This reminds me of something. I've noticed that there are avariety of well educated terrorist groups. The Al-Quida apparantly attracted well-educated people. There's also that religous terrorist group over in Japan. It strikes me as being a bit odd.

I guess there have been precedents in America. There was the Weather Underground which was made up of college students. I can't think of any other big groups that seem to get people with educations to do the fighting.

Is this phenomna odd? Or is this the traditional background of revolutionaries coming out of the middle class?

Wasn't the uprising at Tiannemen Square mainly students? Perhaps there is a tradition where people are educated enough to know things are not right so they stand and do something about it.

Before anyone jumps on me I am not saying that is the same as what is happening in Afghanistan or in other terrorist groups, just making a general point about student uprisings.

Weren't the Al Queda people religious scholars? So they were educated in a very narrow way? Not sure of the facts there.

k

You're right about the Tiannemen Square incident. I think a lot of the student activity is because of the expirimentation that takes place in school. Having professional adults invovled ina movement strikes me as more odd.

The Taliban started out as religous students. I don't know about Al-Quida. It's my understanding that they recruit in those religous schools in Afghanistan.

Well, it is also possible that the reason students often become activists in these thing is they have less to loose. If you happen to have wife and 4 kids, you're probably less likely to go against anyone out of fear what might happen to them. Sad giving in for blackmail like that.

Revolutionary leaders seem to come 50/50 from the working and middle classes - actual revolutionaries (i.e. groundswell support) tend to be working class or draw from the peasantry).
There are exceptions of course Peter Kropotkin the libertarian communist and father of modern geography was a Prince. Which makes his either an aristocrat or upper class at least.
In Britain revolutionary movements within the working class are predominant, though its the middle class ones that have most influence.

Tiannamen Square was a student demonstration that got out of hand (or rather the response to which got out of hand) - but once it did other people joined in, Tianamen Square was a large public space, read Douglas Adam's description of it on page 142 of Last Chance to See, so it was a good place for a public demo, thousands of passers by would see.
When you see the photos of that guy (anyone know his name?) standing in front of the row of tanks look in his hands, the reason the picture is so clear is he has a plastic carrier bag in each hand, he looks like one of those guys with thepaddles that guide in aircraft). But think about it, he's got his bleeding shopping with him! He didn't get up that morning and go out to martyr himself in the name of greater freedom, he was on his way home with his tea! What a hero.

Yes, good image. And Rosa Parks was on her way home from work and just plain tired.

I don't see how joining a reactionary religious-fundamentalist organisation such as the Taliban betrays "knowing things are wrong and wanting to put them right". Sounds to me like a common problem - disenchanted intelligent middle-class kids hating the current state of affairs (often rightly) and willing to side with whoever it's enemy is (often wrongly).

I have often done strange and anti-societal things, but I'm too much of an anachronism to fit into a group. Groupthink intrigues me becasue it confuses me. I wish I understood it.