h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Lets be very very clear about a few points here:

1) ANYTHING published on this site is by definition and contractual agreement in the public domain.

2) The site provides subsribe buttons to threads and entire forums so that you can monitor a conversation you have not made a public appearence in. Lurking is therefore explicitly facilitated by the powers that be.

3) H2G2 is a series of loosely overlapping communities - ever seen a venn diagram? It is inevitable that we run into the same people again and again in different places. This is not lurking. This is what a community is.

4) Some forums - particularly the ones created by the editorial team (such as Peer Review, and Ask H2G2) are quite clearly public forums. There can be no distinction between 'Reading' and 'Lurking' on these forums.

5) Other threads - particularly the ones on personal pages - are conversations between individuals held in a public place. The netiquette here IS slightly different.

6) It is rude to talk about someone behind their back in a public place where they can see and hear you. It is just as rude to talk about the people at the next table in a restaurant, or in front of you in the queue for the bus, as to talk about other researchers on site, even if that conversation is hanging off someone's personal space.

OK - that covers the legal and practical basics. Now I am going to indulge in a few opinions.

Imho it is not very polite to barge into an established conversation between 2 or 3 individuals in someone's personal space. It is politer to start a new thread in that person's space. I am not sure what the polite and practical thing to do is if they are talking about you. I guess that depends on the tone of the conversation. A lot of us like each other a lot, and are prepared to say so, so there should be no problem there.

There are a lot of threads and forums in H2G2 which are quite cliquey, especially the more surreal ones. In practice they are often boring for an outsider to read, and awkward to become involved in.

I am troubled by the idea of someone else subscribing to all conversations in another person's personal space. I would not like someone to do that to me. However, there is nothing to stop someone checking out where another person has been talking. I have done it myself in order to find new forums where I know like-minded people hang out. I don't make a practice of it. I know other researchers have followed me around too. It doesn't always feel comfortable, but then I don't always feel comfortable out in public in real life, either.

In conclusion:

In many ways the word 'lurking' can have no meaning here, since this is a public place.

Different parts require different forms of behaviour, as do restaurants, bars, football stadia, lecture theatres, street-markets, recreational clubs, and special interest groups in real life.

This is NOT a private place, legally, practically, or in any other sense.

Dunno if this throws any light. I do hope so. It is late, I am tired.

Respectful salutations to all.

a researcher called Ben

<--- warning: long post but not a rant --->

okdoke - here's my view of territory. To illustrate my post, there will be examples of dumb things that I have done. One of the many advantages of being dumb is that I can provide many such examples, without hurting anyone's feelings.

The concept of territory - it exists. Some people care more about it than others. Here are some thoughts.

- If there is a _hostile_ post on your home space, you CANNOT ignore it. Every time you log on, it will be staring at you, accusingly. Everyone who visits your page will see it. It can, for many people, feel very violating and aggressive. That's because it fundamentally *is* aggressive - YOU are going to THEM.

Example: somebody had made a post which attacked all satanists. I made a post to their home space, pointing out their error, and offering a link to the edited entry on satanism. The researcher was highly unchuffed, saying that I had left a 'halloween present' at his doorstep.

Real World Parallel: a stranger is in a park, walking their dog. Walking up to them and haranguing them on their dress sense is possibly unwise. If they are a friend, however, doing exactly the same thing would be fine and perfectly socially acceptable.

- If there is an entry designed as a meeting place for some club, or group of people, some uni project, or whatever, then the same applies - that entry is the home space of that club. Do not invade, and do not post hostile comments. If you want to criticism vegetarianism, do so at the entry on veggies, not at the h2g2 veggie society

Real World Parallel: You're at a restaurant, and a conference of student psychologists sits down at the table opposite. They discuss Freud's theory that all men want to shag their mother and kill their father. Social etiquette dictates that all men present do not rush over and shout loudly that they are men, and definately do NOT want to shag their mother.

- Entries written by someone, especially unedited ones on highly personal topics, are a lesser example of territory. So are journal posts, so are conversations started on an open topic in askh2g2 or miscchat. They're not *as* territory, but you should still pause for thought.

Example: this is easy - peer review, intelligence thread. I was way too aggressive and critical, when love and kindness were clearly needed. I didn't recognise that I had invaded territory because I was under the misconception that peer review was *my* territory. Mistake.

Real World Parallel. Somebody posts a copy of their manifesto for some minor student post on the college notice board - environmental officer, say. Highlighting the spelling mistakes in red pen is not socially acceptable. Even if you're a rival candidate...

--

If you doubt me, just take a moment to analyse some of the smaller spats that anyone has taken part in, and look at what happened in terms of territory. The Zaphodistas provide a number of particularly fine examples of this, and are probably at just enough distance for objectivity to have set in, without memory setting out.

I haven't totally said what this all has to do with lurking, yet. Bear with me...

Interesting points on Territory Lucinda. Let me mull.

For similar reasons, some months ago I asked why it was not possible to remove threads that someone else had initiated from my personal space. I cannot remember whether I made it a formal request for this feature in future versions of the site. If I did not, I will now.

On another note - I am troubled by the idea of anyone wanting to post hostile comments at any time.

Love, peace, stars, flowers, and low pollen counts to all my fellow earthlings

a peacenik called Ben

This is where I drag myself back on topic. Ok, so those are my thoughts on territory, how do I think it applies?

There are two factors which come into effect here. The first is jargon, slang, and suchlike. If you are in foreign territory, do not assume you understand the lingo. There will be in jokes. There will be metaphors. There will be loose phrasing, because the researchers involved know each other, and know that they won't misinterpret. If you are offended by something, read it 5,000 times to make sure you understood it right, and then post a question asking for clarification that you have got it right, and are not a clueless ninny.

The second is that replying with a hostile, emotional, or aggresive tone in foreign territory is hugely bad netiquette. If you are the sort of person who cannot leave an insult(perceived or real) unanswered, do not lurk in the conversations of those who you believe are likely to insult you. Your fellow researchers will not judge you because of things that are muttered behind your back in obscure conversations. We do all have the capacity for independant thought, no matter how much it might look otherwise at h2g2 meetups after the tenth pint...

While I'm on the subject of territory - it is polite to say "hi", or to *wave* or suchlike before entering foreign territory, or interrupting conversations between 2+ other people - just as in real life. In fact, much of what I say here is just real life stuff - but unfortunately they have to be emphasised and called 'netiquette' because it is so much harder to treat generators of text as human beings. The same reason we have road rage, in fact...

Right, that's me done: thank you for listening, those who have listened. -Martin {pretending to be a sociology lecturer}

Perhaps hostile was the wrong word...

I see nothing wrong if there is an edited entry on, say, abortion, with a pro-life activist posting there that they think abortion is wrong. That's their opinion, and they are right to share it, even if they are wrong to hold it. Posting *exactly* the same message, word for word, on the home space of someone who has recently had an abortion, or on the space of an h2g2 abortion support group, would not be acceptable.

Extreme example, of course, though perhaps it will make my point well. But there is a place for disagreement, discussion, even argument, on h2g2 - on even the most volatile subject. But that place has to be in neutral territory.

Naturally, all above is in my opinion - I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert... (well, maybe a little... )

As I said in Post 23, I had some issues about new threads in my personal space a while ago. I have now raised this issue with tbtb, and referred them to this thread for some background. http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F47999?thread=125527&post=1108831#p1108831 I hope this is ok with everyone in this thread. Should have asked first. Damn! Netiquette, netiquette, the pitfalls of netiquette. How much easier it was when the question was 'which fork do I use to scratch myself with?' a great clumsy fool called Ben

Lucinda, you are right about the etiquette relating to Personal Spaces, and to entries created by individuals.

But it seems to me that although groups also deserve respect, individuals deserve more respect.

In other words in the example you gave, that while it would be inappropriate to put anti-abortion views in the way you describe to the individual who had an abortion, it would be acceptable to express such an opinion (politely, of course), to the pro-abortion group.

***B

I specifically said "abortion support" - as in a group to support people who have recently had an abortion, and are torn to pieces about it, or those who are going to do such, and are similarly torn. There is a difference between that and a pro-choice group, though it might seem small to those who are pro-life.

With regards to a pro-choice group, my own approach, were I pro-life, would be to start a thread at an entry on abortion, and then post a brief advert for it at the pro-choice group: "You may be interested in this thread. I'm sorry for intruding".

Dang, I should have picked a less emotional example - that was dumb

For balance, I should say that a pro-choice post to a group which offered support to women going through with difficult births would be similarly inappropriate.

And that I use the terms 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' not out of any value judgement, but because that is the terms those groups choose for themselves, and I respect the right of people to name themselves.

Martin - somebody hand me a shovel, I can dig this hole deeper...

Lucinda, Ben - I'm just wondering if this thread now constitutes a private conversation between two people that I shouldn't interupt.

176645 - waving and drowning

My misunderstanding. I read "abortion support" and thought it meant a group that supports the right to have an abortion, not a group that supports people faced with a traumatic abortion.

D'oh. However, it does not change my views about posting to groups compared with posting to individuals.

Hello 176645! Good to see you up so late. Alas, I am off to bed now.

Goodnight all.

a dumb-nodcock called Ben

no it doesn't: one may have private conversations in a secluded area of a park, but probably not on the stage of a national theatre...

Sorry -I would have been back sooner but lost my connection for a while - goodnight Ben - or rather goodmorning.

176645

Hi everyone!
Wonderful input here! Thanks to everyone!

I'm finally reading all this... was afraid it might just fade away, as lurkers lurk and posters post. To answer somebody's question from way back, titling this thread "Lurkers Anonymous" was a sample of my twisted sense of humor.

Lucinda- h2g2 is even more public than a national stage, as I see it. It's www. wide. And it's free to anyone who cares to look. I think you're on target regarding politeness. I also think that people using this stage need to remember that others don't always remember their manners and that there might be some tomatoes thrown. Not a nice thing, but always a potential when one choses to be a player.

I lurked a lot from day one here. It was ages before I put a tentative fin in the water.
*cue wibbly wobbly lines across the thread*

When I was still a relative newbie, one reseracher used to crop up on the "who's online" list from time to time. This person never posted but was there for ages, just reading. In those days your name would drop off the list if you went off to surf elsewhere, so it was clear they were lurking. Ongoing threads used to pause while everyone waved, just in case the researcher saw.

The researcher's name was DNA

*more wibbly wobbly lines*

What a great thread, this is!
Honestly, it is. No sarcasm intended (I try not to do sarcasm, ever).
But I think we have really moved away a bit from the original question which was about the motives behind lurking (and not about contributing). We have considered things like "when is it appropriate to post" but posting must be the opposite of lurking.
Once you have posted, you are no longer just quietly lurking but are actively participating.
Oh and by the way, I wish we didn't use the word "lurking" at all-it seems too, kind of, sinister and somehow unpleasant. For me, the term "lurking" somehow implies an element of secrecy and ill-intent.
Can anyone think of a better word?

An ex-lurker called Ommigosh.

I lurked for ages on h2g2 when I joined as a Researcher, to learn the netiquette of the site rather then jumping straight in. This is the sort of person I am. I am actually (and I know everyone will go 'yeah right!') very shy.

I lurk and I read now. It is what makes me good at my job. There are no boundaries on h2g2. It means that I know what is happening to people and tell me someone that wouldn't be happy for me to go at the meet-up 'Yeah I know you! You did really well in your exams / just got engaged / wrote a really good piece in your journal about that argument you had with your mother.. boy, do I know how you feel.'

I welcome all people on my personal space. If there is a conversation going on and someone wants to join in - that is great. Private conversations are best kept to email, because there are no private spaces on h2g2. I do have a lot of email contact with Researchers and I value that.

Lucinda, I thought you made a very good point about territory. But I do worry that in trying to set up too many rules, you take away the need for people to be personally responsible for their actions.

AGCB you are quite right to point out that everything on h2g2 is very public, and I urge all Researchers never to forget this. Peta had to remove one of my threads that was a bit too personal just before I started at h2g2 because I had forgotten this.

My own personal view is that manners are essential, but there is no need to be overly gushy because that just looks insincere.

My rule for life is that I have no right to crticise anyone without offering praise in equal measure. h2g2 is as a rule happy place, and the flashpoints are bright but small. That is why they attract so much attention.

'My rule for life is that I have no right to crticise anyone without offering praise in equal measure'

What a great way to be. I really like that, Abi, and am taking it to heart.

***B

* lurks *

Ahh - but that is precisely the point MoG - I am *not* choosing to be a player. If I'm on a stage somewhere, I expect people to judge me on my performance, declare loudly and y that they could do better themselves, and tut-tut about how short my skirt is . But (most of) h2g2 is not such a stage - I am not here to perform - I am here to enjoy myself, as part of a community. Cat-calls whenever I fluff my lines (which is often) are not appreciated...

'lurking' is indeed a somewhat unpleasant name - kinda like words like busy-bodies, gossips, keyhole-peepers, voyeurs, meddlers, snoops, spies, stalkers, and all the others. It amazes me how people continue to invent new terms for old activities just because they involve computers...