h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"I really wish there were more angry US citizens to tease" <-- It is that sort of sentiment that made me post here to begin with. I won't repeat myself; one may scroll back in the lists to see my first post about that sort of sentiment.

I do feel the need to speak up here, however. In defense of my collegue (if I may call you that, Colonel Sellers and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), his statements were referring to the belief that all people, no matter who they are or where they are, will naturally tend to use resources without thought of efficiency or of the eventual requirement to "tighten the belt" when those resources run low. This is particularly true when that resource is extraordinarily abundant, and is relied upon for so many aspects of the society. Human beings tend naturally to the "use it while it's there" or "spend it while we got it" mentality. The cultural youth of the USA (and all America in general) has contributed greatly to this tendency. We have as a society become accostomed to, maybe even dependent on, living with cheap energy. I believe (as the Colonel apparently does too) that given this same situation, most human civilizations (if not all) would follow this trend eventually. That is the nature of technology, and so-called labor-saving devices. So his comment that Africa would use the same amount of energy given the same availability of that energy is justified, if you accept that theory of human nature as I do.

Why do I accept that thoery? It makes sense when you think of it from the perspective of how our race has developed. We are not particularly well-suited creatures to our environment - our bodies cannot even handle the environmental variables provided by simple changes in weather from season to season without some form of protection, either wrapping ourselves up with stuff to keep us warm or even in some places building machines to try to keep us cool (though that globally is not as common a life-threatening problem). We get sick and can die relatively easily without the help of medicines. Our livelyhoods are, in the vast majority, made by working to support the very society we have created and no longer by merely trying to survive. In modern times of course, we suffer at each others hands more often than anything else; but were it not for the very technology that provides us the luxury of being our own #1 worst enemy, we would be short-lived, weak, and balancing on the knife edge of constant combat with our surroundings. Technology won the war of the survival of the human race versus the rest of the world for us; but like all wars, winning isn't all it's cracked up to be. We now have responsibility to our world to work with it, for we are dependent on the very environment that once threatened our existence. Sounds obvious, yes; but still it is easy to forget.

It is because of this forgetfullness, or perhaps unwillingness is a better word, of the individual to recognize the effects of his/her existence and personal luxuries that we enjoy on a daily basis that I feel that human civilizations as a whole tend to use all of a resource available until it's gone. The tendency nowadays is to think, "well - technology will save us, it always has." A way of re-phrasing that applicable to the current topic is, "we rely on some new means of getting energy in the future because we have faith in our own abilities as a society to develop those means." I submit that this is a fact of human nature, a product of our evolvement past the tool age and through the industrial age. This is merely a modernized manifestation of the human tendency to rely on our brains, ultimately, for survival. It is a ubiquitous fact of the human race, and to feel guilty about it or remorse is like feeling guilty for having a nose.

I would be very surprised if my opinion about this aspect of human nature is not shared by most citizens of western civilizations, whether consciously arrived at or not. To understand another, we first look within ourselves. Is it any wonder, then, that all of this accusation and "teasing" of my country and our citizens produces a wounded pride or even a bit of anger in some of us? Can you not see the "holier-than-thou" stance such an attitude takes in our eyes? For what it's worth, we ARE a society that uses far more energy per person than any other society; that fact, like all facts, seem to be hardly worth arguing about. It is my opinion, however, that were you born in this culture you would act the same way. We all would, and we all DO, in fact. The USA is almost exclusively made up of people that have emigrated from all over the world within the last 400 hundred years or so. The ones that emigrated here last year happily waste as much energy as any other citizens that have lived here for generations (with the possible and notable exception of the original Native American societies that simply were not as technologically advanced as the original European settlers). We are Europeans, Africans, and Asians, to name a few, and we all live in a very rich country; but we are not so different from you, and you are not so different from us.

My point is that it is not "the Americans" that are at fault here, but all human nature. I state this not to absolve myself from blame as I am an American (well, USA anyway - there ARE more countries in America than the USA). I state this because I believe blame, accusation, and retribution are not solutions but contributors that even can create entirely new problems. I state it this way because only by recognizing the true problem, the prime fault as it were, can we hope to correct it. I think THAT is what Colonel Sellers was starting to get at with his statement. The problem is in human nature, and we need to correct that. It is, of course, much more incumbent upon us as citizens of the USA than anywhere else to do so, thanks to our nation's present wealth. Having said that, it seems plain to me that the way change a society lies not with the few in power, but with the many that grant that power. It's up to us to change ourselves. Is it happening fast enough? Debatable, and impossible to know until after the fact. We just need to be sure it keeps happening.

The human mind is the greatest tool of all time. I think that we're all, slowly working on honing that tool for better use in the future age (whatever that will be, myself not really believing it's the so-called "information age"). When we grow up, as a species, and stop being dumb panicky animals, our minds will have overcome that obstacle to logic and reason put in place so long ago by early days of our development and survival. Some backsliding is to be expected, of course, which is why I never really get angry when I'm teased or provoked by what I feel is an ignorant and provocative statement. It's all just part of forcing ourselves down the right path, if it is demonstration by example of the wrong way to go about things.

"I really wish there were more angry US citizens to tease" <-- It is that sort of sentiment that made me post here to begin with. I won't repeat myself; one may scroll back in the lists to see my first post about that sort of sentiment.

I do feel the need to speak up here, however. In defense of my collegue (if I may call you that, Colonel Sellers and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), his statements were referring to the belief that all people, no matter who they are or where they are, will naturally tend to use resources without thought of efficiency or of the eventual requirement to "tighten the belt" when those resources run low. This is particularly true when that resource is extraordinarily abundant, and is relied upon for so many aspects of the society. Human beings tend naturally to the "use it while it's there" or "spend it while we got it" mentality. The cultural youth of the USA (and all America in general) has contributed greatly to this tendency. We have as a society become accostomed to, maybe even dependent on, living with cheap energy. I believe (as the Colonel apparently does too) that given this same situation, most human civilizations (if not all) would follow this trend eventually. That is the nature of technology, and so-called labor-saving devices. So his comment that Africa would use the same amount of energy given the same availability of that energy is justified, if you accept that theory of human nature as I do.

Why do I accept that thoery? It makes sense when you think of it from the perspective of how our race has developed. We are not particularly well-suited creatures to our environment - our bodies cannot even handle the environmental variables provided by simple changes in weather from season to season without some form of protection, either wrapping ourselves up with stuff to keep us warm or even in some places building machines to try to keep us cool (though that globally is not as common a life-threatening problem). We get sick and can die relatively easily without the help of medicines. Our livelyhoods are, in the vast majority, made by working to support the very society we have created and no longer by merely trying to survive. In modern times of course, we suffer at each others hands more often than anything else; but were it not for the very technology that provides us the luxury of being our own #1 worst enemy, we would be short-lived, weak, and balancing on the knife edge of constant combat with our surroundings. Technology won the war of the survival of the human race versus the rest of the world for us; but like all wars, winning isn't all it's cracked up to be. We now have responsibility to our world to work with it, for we are dependent on the very environment that once threatened our existence. Sounds obvious, yes; but still it is easy to forget.

It is because of this forgetfullness, or perhaps unwillingness is a better word, of the individual to recognize the effects of his/her existence and personal luxuries that we enjoy on a daily basis that I feel that human civilizations as a whole tend to use all of a resource available until it's gone. The tendency nowadays is to think, "well - technology will save us, it always has." A way of re-phrasing that applicable to the current topic is, "we rely on some new means of getting energy in the future because we have faith in our own abilities as a society to develop those means." I submit that this is a fact of human nature, a product of our evolvement past the tool age and through the industrial age. This is merely a modernized manifestation of the human tendency to rely on our brains, ultimately, for survival. It is a ubiquitous fact of the human race, and to feel guilty about it or remorse is like feeling guilty for having a nose.

I would be very surprised if my opinion about this aspect of human nature is not shared by most citizens of western civilizations, whether consciously arrived at or not. To understand another, we first look within ourselves. Is it any wonder, then, that all of this accusation and "teasing" of my country and our citizens produces a wounded pride or even a bit of anger in some of us? Can you not see the "holier-than-thou" stance such an attitude takes in our eyes? For what it's worth, we ARE a society that uses far more energy per person than any other society; that fact, like all facts, seem to be hardly worth arguing about. It is my opinion, however, that were you born in this culture you would act the same way. We all would, and we all DO, in fact. The USA is almost exclusively made up of people that have emigrated from all over the world within the last 400 hundred years or so. The ones that emigrated here last year happily waste as much energy as any other citizens that have lived here for generations (with the possible and notable exception of the original Native American societies that simply were not as technologically advanced as the original European settlers). We are Europeans, Africans, and Asians, to name a few, and we all live in a very rich country; but we are not so different from you, and you are not so different from us.

My point is that it is not "the Americans" that are at fault here, but all human nature. I state this not to absolve myself from blame as I am an American (well, USA anyway - there ARE more countries in America than the USA). I state this because I believe blame, accusation, and retribution are not solutions but contributors that even can create entirely new problems. I state it this way because only by recognizing the true problem, the prime fault as it were, can we hope to correct it. I think THAT is what Colonel Sellers was starting to get at with his statement. The problem is in human nature, and we need to correct that. It is, of course, much more incumbent upon us as citizens of the USA than anywhere else to do so, thanks to our nation's present wealth. Having said that, it seems plain to me that the way change a society lies not with the few in power, but with the many that grant that power. It's up to us to change ourselves. Is it happening fast enough? Debatable, and impossible to know until after the fact. We just need to be sure it keeps happening.

The human mind is the greatest tool of all time. I think that we're all, slowly working on honing that tool for better use in the future age (whatever that will be, myself not really believing it's the so-called "information age"). When we grow up, as a species, and stop being dumb panicky animals, our minds will have overcome that obstacle to logic and reason put in place so long ago by early days of our development and survival. Some backsliding is to be expected, of course, which is why I never really get angry when I'm teased or provoked by what I feel is an ignorant and provocative statement. It's all just part of forcing ourselves down the right path, if it is demonstration by example of the wrong way to go about things.

ARGH! I sure wish I hadn't posted that more than once, given the length. Got a number of "host unreachable" errors, but I guess more than one went through. Sorry 'bout that!

Thats american technology for you

Hi JD. There you go - full of good sense as usual! It's not just human nature, it's nature. It's the reason that so many people are overweight in the west. Throughout our evolutionary history we've had to gorge ourselves whenever the chance presented itself, especially with foods high in fat, sugar and salt. Now these food are readily available, we have no inbuilt mechanism for not doing what comes naturally. Now we have to do the wise thing - and of course, not all of us have that capacity.

It's all very well to believe that technology will get us out of the hole we dig for ourselves now. The trouble is, even if it does in the long run, a lot of people - millions, maybe even billions - may die before that technology is developed. We have this way of thinking we're always progressing ever onwards and upwards. That may be a delusion. We could be sowing the seeds of our own destruction. By the time it becomes clear one way of the other, it might be too late to reverse the trend.

Proper Ganda, and here I was thinking that the *SOAP* actually caused the *SOAP SCUM* on my shower walls, gee silly me. Anyway, no, I didn't write the article on the nuke stuff, I wish I knew alot more about it though. But reciently I read that when a huricane knocked out all of the surrounding towns, the nuclear plant that was built there was undamaged! Infact, if the power lines haden't been knocked out, it would have been still distributing power! Those things are built like tanks in Am and I hope around the world. We learned from 3mile island and chernoble(sp), didn't we?

Good job, JD... you amplified my point quite well... repeatedly, I might add.

Human nature is exactly what I was talking about. Everyone here is saying what wonderful things that the Europeans are doing to conserve their natural resources, and that's good. But let's not forget that it is a distinct lack of natural resources in these countries that is the driving force. Of course you're going to use less petroleum, because you don't have any native petroleum. You have to purchase it from elsewhere. But you also have highly-concentrated populations and tightly-built cities that don't support automobiles very well. But you can build a viable train system, and now you're using less energy and producing less pollution.

The US doesn't have that advantage. It's a huge country, and the population is rather thinly spread, except for certain metropolitan areas. So we have to have cars, at least for the time being. That means more energy use, and more pollution. We have the money available to import pertroleum, and we produce quite a bit of it ourselves, which is why we pay about half as much for it at the pump as you Brits. As that resource becomes more scarce, cleaner technologies will be developed. It's not my idea, but that's human nature. As I've said time and time again, people are stupid.

No the reason you pay half as much at the pump is Tax. over 75% of the UK pump price is tax. Ever heard of the North Sea oil rigs ?

The US draws oil from offshore rigs in the Pacific and the Gulf of Mexico. It also draws oil from land-based oil rigs in Texas, Oklahoma, California, and Alaska. That's just where the big operations are; there are smaller fields scattered throughout. And land-based operations are much less expensive to build and maintain.

The US tax on gas is about 50%.

If you have been paying attention to the policy making of the Bush administration, you will have noticed that OILMAN Dubya is actually carrying on his father's war against the environment in favor of big business. Don't ya just love capitalism? The GN/BN situation is that China-US relations are stressed by recent events, and this hick is working on another cold war, and perhaps a nother real one.

Just for all those Nuke Enthusiasts look up http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A476723 "How a Nuclear Plant Works"
I especially like the conversations attached.

Hello Fat North America.

Well I have easy access to food (as does all of western europe). Physically I am the same (as you stated).
Average European vs Average North American who is Fatter?
Why perhaps it is because I am not as greedy and selfish?
Perhaps it is something to do with culture and Mass Media influence over fragile little heads.

The Culture of North America needs to change, not Human Nature. As for the recent Chinese scenario this is clearly an attempt to US stamp authority over the international community.

>As for the recent Chinese scenario this is clearly an attempt to US >stamp authority over the international community.

Come on, it can't be only the US which flies spy planes that close to China, what would Britain have done? What would Australia have done in that situation?

>Average European vs Average North American who is Fatter?
>Why perhaps it is because I am not as greedy and selfish?
>Perhaps it is something to do with culture and Mass Media influence >over fragile little heads.

As someone from the second fattest country in the world (america beats us by 1%), I have to object to the selfish and greedy thing. The food is there, and yes we demand it, and yes we eat it, but we're hardly taking it out of the mouths of the developing nations. A much more accurate picture of how selfish and greedy we are would be to see how much money each individual in a country donates to international charities or something more in the way of hard evidence than how bloody fat we are.

'not taking it out of the mouths of developing nations'

It's widely known that land in developing countries which could be used for growing grain (which could then adequately feed the native population) is used by giant corporations to create grazing pasture for their beef cattle. I don't remember the figures but raising cattle is a *very* inefficient way to use land.
And bananas, coffee, tea, tobacco, rice etc.

The world produces enough food to feed the masses, the west just choose not to do so. So you are taking the food out of people's mouths, and until we all realise that our consuming habits are *directly* leading to millions of deaths each year, nothing will change.
It's not a nice thought: how many children did you kill today?

Hey almost didn't see you there Fat Oceania.

Perhaps you have a similar culture as the US.

I do believe that the UK (and probably Clinton) would have rapidly apologised (away from the press) and attempted to hush the situation so as to avoid making an international scene.

From what I can tell of the limited Aussies & Kiwis that I have met they are not exactly Buddhist monks them selves and have a tendency towards excess.

I suppose you believe that Australia's presence in East Timor was purely independant.

>Perhaps you have a similar culture as the US.

we're drowned in it in case you hadn't noticed, just like everywhere else

>From what I can tell of the limited Aussies & Kiwis that I have met they are not exactly Buddhist monks them selves and have a tendency towards excess.

I'm sick of Europeans taking the moral high ground *just* because you aren't as fat. Well done Britain, well done, you ought to be sainted for all the defending of the developing nations you do, wow, you didn't eat as much as I did today, thats amazing, how many children did you save today?

>I suppose you believe that Australia's presence in East Timor was purely independant.

look, we don't expect to fight in a war, we don't think ourselves a world power, we are still a constitutional monarchy, and so we have a small military. Fair enough that we ask for help from allies and our 'mother country'? I think so. Perhaps you don't think helping out in East Timor was worthy of your country?

There are some unjustifiable sweeping generalisations going on here. The worst that can be said about most of us is that we're ignorant and possibly apathetic. That's true of people all over the planet. The obesity thing is a trend in most rich countries - some countries are ahead of others but it's still a trend in developed countries.

Don't get so defensive Magrat. I'm not calling all Aussies (or Americans for that matter) fat. All I'm saying is that our actions have effects that we just don't see. Saying "I've got the money so I'll eat/do what I like." is, to be honest, selfish.
Take, for instance, your jeans. To produce them in Aus would cost (I'm estimating here) $30 per pair, then you buy them for $70. If a 12 year old child makes your jeans in a third world sweatshop, they would probably cost $2 dollars to make. You probably pay $50. A good deal for you, but that 12 year old is subsidising your purchase with their labour. Can't you see how unfair that is? It's the same with food: people in Somalia go hungry because you want cheap meat. The governments are happy to sell land to multinationals because they need the money to buy guns to repress their hungry citizens or fight to retain their position/status. And where do the guns come from?

Back on topic, Bush's anti-environmental stance is an instance of the same thing. America must sustain economic growth, so the rest of the world can just get stuffed. It's short-termism where a small band of corporates are determined to feather their nests regardless of the consequences. Our silence gives them consent.

how many children did I kill today? well let's see, I had half of a half of a peice of toast this morning, a sandwich, a bottle of gatorade and some carrots for lunch, and for dinner I'm having sausage....I'd say that would be at least enough food for 40,000 childeren don't you Andy? Now if you are going to make that kind of acusation about all of the human race (or maybe just us EVIL BAD SCAAAAAAARY Americans), are you sending your food to Africa? Do you hand knit your clothes and hand pick the cotton off the plant so the migrant workers aren't opressed? Do you even, at the very least, donate money to worthy causes?

Now I don't (and never have) say that Americans are EVIL, BAD or SCAAAAAAARY. Some people - and some Americans - are though. George Bush is all of the above. I'm just saying that our actions have consequences far beyond our understanding and that third world nations are subsidising our consumerism.
This is the whole Bush administration position on global environmental protection. America consumes more energy per capita than every other nation on Earth and yet Bush doesn't feel that America should take responsibility for its actions. You get the benefit and screw everyone else.
I'm not claiming to be holier than thou, I can't claim to knit my own jeans. But I do buy fair trade goods where I can, and I do give to worthy causes when I can afford it (though I would prefer to see change rather than people relying on charity).

Yowuzupman, your diet needs more fruit and vegetables. And fibre (unless the toast and sandwich were made with wholemeal bread)

Hey let us all cut to the chase. What humans pump out in a year in pollutants, one erupting volcano can do in a day! With all the Volcanoes that erupt every year around the world I think humans over estimate themselves. Plus we are diving into an Ice age. Scientists have proven without doubt that our planet is getting colder - maybe we should pump more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere to keep the planet warm. Lead in petrol stunts the growth of kids but i'm the tallest in my family - and I was brought up in an inner city during the 70's and 80's- next to a main road. When you see our planet from space the only colours are blue, white and green - no GREY representing human sprawl! Look here - Scienctists get money if they predict doom and gloom. It's funny how all these developed countries suddenly want to cut down on burning fossil fuels - just when the third world are getting into the act of becoming industrialized - and digging out of the hole that keeps them ransomed to the first world. Plus America stopped supplying fertilisers and GM seeds to third world countries about the fears of there peoples childrens childrens health!! Rubbish, there are people starving, if they don't get the food to feed the people - there won't be generations of new people to come - again it is just to keep third world people slaves to the first world. My final point is why America is paying african ladies to be mutilated so they can't have kids - stating less people means these african countries can take care of there people better - increasing the prosperity of the country - Rubbish - Belgium is the most populated country per Square mile - and they are rolling in money!