h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

And International Baccalaureate!!!!!!

I mustn't let anyone forget that, even though not many people in the UK get to do it. I was very lucky... as was my sister.

Bald Bloke asked:
---Whats the earliest age at which you can legally leave school and get a job.----

At 16 you can legally leave school, although you won't get a diploma or anything if you haven't finished the requirements. However, almost ALL jobs in the US require at least a high school diploma or GED. A lot of kids who drop out at 16 actually take night classes working towards the GED -- they usually realize pretty quickly that they're not going anywhere jobwise without it.

FYI -- You can legally work part-time starting at 14, but you have to have a work permit -- your parents have to sign, and the school has to say that you're not failing classes because of work, etc.

Mikey

Oh, I just thought of something else I should mention. Most public/state-funded high schools in the US have vocational classes as well. Students still have to take the minimum English, math, etc., but can also take job training towards auto repair, cosmetology, etc. This usually includes internships and/or other on-the-job training.

I took 2 years of carpentry, myself. Suffice it to say, the teacher was less than pleased to have a girl in advanced carpentry -- he suggested I try interior decorating instead if I was "all so interested in walls".



Mikey

We have International Baccalaureate here in the US, too, although not many schools participate. Students who score really well on the IB exams can get some college credit for it, although generally not as much as you can for the AP exams.

If anyone could make sense of that last posting, could you please give me a simplified version? (no offense intended to author, my education is just a lot easier to understand)
Now that we have had a thorough grounding in the English education system does anyone want to hear about Australia? (It's a lot less confusing than most of what I have read in this conversation)
I ensure that all this information is correct (at least in the A.C.T. [Australian Capital Territory])

preschool/creche (not compulsory)
new born - 4/5 years old

primary school is as follows:
kindergarten (beginning of compulsory sixteen year slog) 5-6
year one 6-7
year two 7-8
year three 8-9
year four 9-10
year five 10-11
year six 11-12

high school
year seven 12-13
year eight 13-14
year nine 14-15 (at 15 you may leagally leave school)
year ten 15-16

college
year eleven 16-17
year twelve 17-18

university
as old or as young as you want to be

see? it's logical

must dash

Skiving = bunking off = playing hooky = playing truant = wagging
Any others?

Cloviscat wrote:
---Skiving = bunking off = playing hooky = playing truant = wagging
Any others?---

most often called "ditching" or "skipping" here in the US....

Mikey

Universities here generally seem to think IB's better than A Levels - or at least the old A Level system. Don't know about the new one, although I do know it's supposed to be partially inspired by the IB. Apparently the government weren't brave enough to create a British Baccalaureate...

Employers like it too - those of them who know what it is anyway.

One finaly point on the Scottish system. We do not have, to my knowledge, Sixth Form Colleges. All Highers (at 17) and SYS's (at 18) are taken in the same school structure, and with the same teachers as you do your Standard Grades (at 16). Also, while uniform was never compulsary (local coucil was against it) the school said you could not be a Prefect (hang around school corridors intimidating first years) in 5ht or 6th year unless you wore uniform. Hence only Sixth Years and swots wore uniform.

One thing I've come across at so many Scottish schools, but never in England, was all this sewing of piping or braiding around the edge of the blazer to denote prefectship or whatever... mind you, I went to a terribly 'right-on' English comprehensive that thought that any form of grading, hierachy or official position caused 'exclusion' - It was a really cr*p school - what a shame it burnt down!

Anyway, Munchkin, any braid in your neighbourhood?

All this stuff about mixed-ability classes always being better is total bunk. I mean, how can you teach trigonometry to a class consisting of five people who understand everything you're saying before you've even said it, ten people who're learning, six people who aren't listening and five people who are still stuck on basic algebra. It's impossible!

That was intended as a detailed explanation, really.

The new A-level system *is* inspred by (not based on, I don't think) the IB. Other people in this thread know much more than me, so I'll leave it to them to explain the details, but the point is that, on the continent, your education is far wider even as late as the first year of uni (I think). There are compulsory bits like French, German or whatever (ie. native-language skills) and maths, as well as specialist subjects. The new A-level system is supposed to make pre-uni education more flexible, and the Key Skills introduces the compulsory elements. In the old system, if you did well in the first year but made a hash of the second year, you end up leaving your sixth form with no A-levels at all. (Now it's the other way round, as you have to pass the AS to get the A2.)

Please, MaW, tell us more.

There seem to be one or two open points still regarding the English side of education.

One is that A levels, GCSE's etc are set by an external board and are sat at all schools at the same time on the same day and the papers are sent in for marking. The teachers have no influence on or knowledge of what will come out. This is important, as in most other countries, I think, the exams are set by the school. (Will explain the German system further on)

Education is run, in England at least, by the County. School holiday dates and syllabuses may vary from county to county - rulings on the cost of dinners, grants, provision of books and stationery, transport, etc., will be decided at this level.

Another question that is still not quite clarified is - what is a form? I remember the word Form being applied to both the whole year "The Fourth Form boys will do a cross country run in games this afternoon" but also the class - "There are 3 Jennifers in Form 6b "

Also no one gave a definitive definition for a Grammar School. In 1965, when I started secondary education, and for some 7-8 years after that, you had to take the 11+ at the age of 10 or 11, when you were in your last year of primary education. The results of this decided whether you went to a Grammar school (pass) or Secondary Modern (fail). So the Grammar school kids were the "elite". Two years after I left Grammar School, the school joined up with the Secondary Modern next door to make a Comprehensive.

I went to school in England from 1959 to 1972 and would like to know the following from anyone more modern than that: if you now number the classes continually from 1 - 9 or 11 or whatever, how come you still talk about sixth forms.

The fact that there are now new exams called AS levels rather peeves me, because we had "S" levels which were for the very clever - you had to be recommended to be allowed to take it, and it was higher than A level. After seeing the education in Germany however, I do approve of the fact that you have a broader training in the 6th form now. How you do it, I don't know. We had our three A level subjects and the time table was full with that.

And now I will try and explain the idiosyncrasies of the German education system. I have three sons at school in Germany and a husband who is a teacher here so this is reliable information. Again, in Germany, the education system is decided on a regional basis and what I say applies to my area.

Children start school at the age of 7. They spend 3 (sometimes 4) years at kindergarten prior to this (not compulsory). School, however, is compulsory. Teaching at home is not allowed. My particular gripe is that there is very little interaction between school and kindergarten, and children showing aptitude are literally suppressed if they wish to learn to read at an earlier age.

They learn to read and write and do sums in four years of primary school, along with a little basic science, crafts, religion, music, games and sports, art, etc. They then go on to one of three different levels of secondary education, depending upon the recommendation by the primary school teachers. For a very short time, freedom was granted to the parents to choose which school their child went on to, but with disastrous results.

Secondary education in the " lowest" level goes on to 16 (legal age for compulsory education) and provides basic maths, German, English, sciences, etc - enough to go into a trade. You are not allowed to carry out a trade without some training in it in Germany, and you must be a "Meister" to be able to train apprentices. Most apprenticeships take 3 years, including some further schooling.

The second level of schooling also ends at 16, but some children will then shift over to the higher level to carry on. Others can go into a trade or for training at banks, insurances, or most jobs in industry and commerce.

The third level, about which I could write more, because all my men are there, is quite stringent and goes on for 9 years. Germany has the longest education in Europe. You take a foreign language from the 5th class, usually English, occasionally Latin, and, due to geographical proximity, possibly also French. From the 7th class you then go on to do another of these three languages and from the 9th you have the choice to take the third. The level of science teaching is, by all accounts, not as good in the West as in the East - Polish, Russian and East German pupils score really high in Physics and Maths, but drop, of course, in things like English. This is rapidly evening out as the schools are filling with children born since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

You complete, therefore, at the age of 20 with 13 years of schooling behind you, with an "Abitur", which has been set and marked by the school you were at.

University also takes longer here, so with national service still in force, a boy who studies will not be able to start work until he is 26 or 27. At which point all he has is a degree, so he has to start learning to do something with his knowledge - i.e. teacher training or some other, possibly on-the-job training.

One other quirk of German education which I still find amusing, is the use of oral exams. This seems to have some medieval basis - the student sits in front of a committee of teachers - not all from the subject being tested - and has to answer questions orally on that subject, on a special area of knowledge which he has swatted up on beforehand (the teachers hate these, because they have to swat them up, too, to know what questions to ask). (We had these only as a method of testing our powers of speech in foreign languages.)

Of course, a well-prepared student can shine by holding a lecture on his given subject and blinding the teachers with science. (or history of art or politics or whatever)

Nuff said. Could go on for hours.

One tiny point. In Germany school only takes place in the mornings. They are shocked at the thought of providing meals in schools. However, I've totted up and the number of actual minutes spent in lessons is about the same. To achieve this, they have to start school very early - some schools at 7:30 (in some towns they have to stagger it because of buses, etc.)

The older ones have just too many lessons and have to go back again in the afternoon. Usually this is for the peripheral subjects and the teachrs (who are also pretty whacked by then) have to fight apathy and lethargy, provided the kids turn up in the first place!

You say your timetable was filled with the three A-levels. How much teaching time did you get?

At my college there are 24 75-minuite periods in the week (five a day, except Wednesday, when there's 'common time', which is for things like sport and learning support), and each A-level takes up four of these per week. Key skills is one more period, unless you're exempt. That leaves seven free periods (or eight if you don't do anything in common time) if you're doing four AS levels. It's tiring, but I make it. The coffee certainly helps.

'AS' stands for 'Advanced Supplementary'. I presume your 'S' level stood for 'special' or something like that.

Oh, and according to my German textbook, the Abitur ends at 18.

Trill. I thing they still call them sixth forms as otherwise there would be the unfortunate problem of everybody taking A levels in year 13.

It's interesting that you say thet kids from the east do better at maths science subjects. Confirms something I've thought for a while about the toughness of russian maths. One of my 11 year old pupils is doing stuff I didn't do till I did A level maths. The thing I find the scariest is that they are not allowed calculators of any size shape or form and all my pupils are lightning at mental arithmatic (and I teach english in a private lang school so I'm not getting the maths brains by any means). They are quicker than me with a calculator, in fact. Sometimes I think we really pull our punches in Br schools with maths.

Mind you, they drive them hard to achieve this. There seem to be assesed tests every other week in most subjects and all teenagers seem to have about 5 hours of homework everynight (not an exageration).

Having said that some of their humanity teaching is terrible. Lots of rote learning, and writing essays by copying bits word for word out of books. They are good at teaching R grammar though, and I must say it makes my job a lot easier. How can you learn a foriegn language if you don't know how yours works?

I meant to explain the russian system. Start school about the same time as everywhere else. Go up to year 11 or year 10 (thats age 16/17) - some schools have no year 4. School leaving age is 15 I think. Continuous assesment based on grades, which go one to five (five is the highest. If you are a good student it is humiliating, nay absolutely devestating, to get anything lower than a 4). Exams only in the last year. I think you get some king of high school diploma with your overall grade for each subjectb on, but I'm not sure if this is a school thing or a state thing.

Post school you can go to an institute or a university. The uni is the top ed insitution, offering a wide range of subjects. The institutes are more specifically geared to one subject area and tend to be more vocational. They have the training of highly skilled workers down pat here essentially. It's just a shame there are no jobs around. This ed seems to go on forever, but I think it is more like 5/6 years. You get into these places by doing their exams.

How's this kind of training in Britain now? Last I heard our highest qualification (to be an electrictan, say) wouldn't be accepted in Germany as their lowest qualification. He he.

I can't tell more about the new-style AS/A2 levels because I haven't done them. I can tell more about the IB if anyone's interested though. I'm surprised you had a full timetable on three A Levels though - I did six subjects and still had five free periods a week. The A Level students had even more free time.

Something I noticed when I was in Germany on an exchange is that in a Maths lesson I attended with a class of the age 16/17 school year (or possibly the year below... can't remember for sure apart from that my partner was 16) was only just teaching Pythagoras' Theorem (or Satz des Pythagoras as they called it ) when at my school we'd done it in year 9 (age 13/14). I found this quite bizarre. And it was at a Gymnasium as well (the high-level school). I must admit I found the early start and finish quite nice, although I don't think it would necessarily work so well in this country.

Also, I was taught that the Abitur ends when you're 19, if you're at the young end of the year, and 20 if you're not.

Wow! This means someone read all that!.

Well, we did have free lessons - about five or so a week, but they were spent in the library, preparing, researching and going over work - honestly! Then we had loads of jobs as prefects, with dinner time and break time supervision, various small administrative tasks (e.g. tuck shop, stationery cupboard, organising events for the juniors). So a further subject would not have fit in any time left.

Yes, if your birthday falls between July and December you may leave school aged 19. (or something like that).

You can repeat a year (not more than twice, though) or jump a year, so this can vary either way. Whethe you do this depends entirely on your average marks on your reports.Some kids may even do an apprenticeship after school, but then decide (at say 20 or 21) that they should have done further schooling and will go to a college to continue, leaving that at an even later age.

I have no idea when my kids did pythagoras, or, come to that, when I did, but most subjects seem to go at the same pace as when I was at school in England, and cover the same area at the same time.

What I do find annoying is that they try and spare the little ones. At the age of 11 and 12 kids are far more malleable and receptive, but here they do not start History until later than that and chemistry and physics are also on the back burner for that time. Then, when they are 13 - 14, in puberty, going through hell physically and psychologically, they are juggling all three sciences and all the arts at once, possibly starting a new language and having the maximum homework in all subjects. At about 16/17, it thins out again to their chosen subjects, just as they are settling down with themselves and ready to cope with a wider range of knowledge.

If they had covered more history and geography and, say, biology, earlier on, this bottleneck wouldn't occur.

Crazy system, and one which seems to be similar in most places, but in our part of Germany I find it the most extreme.

The Marking system
----------------------------

In Germany the tradiitonal marking system which is still used up to the 10th grade is 1 - 6, a 1 being the best and a 6 being the worst mark you can get. These can be qualified by a minus or plus after them.

The seniors are marked in points - up to a maximum of 15. For the final report, however, these are translated back into the traditional 1-6.

As from "Yes" in the 2nd para above, everything applies to Germany, sorry, wasn't specific there.

Dunno about the 6th form thing.I've puzzled about it myself but no teacher I've met knows the answer.I reckon it just stuck because a) no one has really noticed the anomily or b) because no one really cares or c)it would cost unnecessary funds to alter everything to reflect the change or d)no one can think of a better name.
Perhaps we could have a little competition to come up with a better name for 6th form colleges.
My suggestions are
A-level colleges.
Advanced Education college.
Pre University.
Post Secondary Education.

Any better ideas?

I would also like to ask if some of you could contribute to the thread"What qualities do you think are vital for a teacher?"I'm still interested in finding out what 'clients/customers'think about good teaching.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/F19585&thread=94202&skip=20&show=20