h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi. I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I'm just finding bits and pieces of answers all over the place, and I'm needing one big cohesive answer.

I need someone to explain the British school system to me.

This has been bothering me my whole life, as I read mostly British books as a child, and was always vaguely worried that I was missing something by not taking all those exams they kept talking about.

I *did* have a British roommate for awhile, but he was rather more a failure of the British school system than otherwise, so it was always rather difficult to tell what he was talking about.

Anyways, I know there are exams, some things called "A-levels" and "O-levels" and GCSEs and all sorts of things. I seem to remember that y'all mean different things by public and private school than we do. And that the age dividing lines for different types of schools are different.

Just be prepared, I have *lots* of questions. I'm not entirely sure why I have this overwhelming curiousity, but it has been rekindled by my re-reading of some of those British children's books I still have.

Actually, as it comes down to it, I'm interested in the school systems of different areas/countries in general. I know a decent amount about American schools, having taught off and on, but it seems like we might have a better shot at improving our schools if we could understand how other countries ran theirs and what worked, what didn't, etc.

Maybe if there's enough people interested, we could turn it into a h2g2 University project, with sections for the educational systems of the different countries.

Mikey the Humming Mouse

NOTE -- Please, please, please don't let this turn into a flame war over whose school system is the best or the worst.

I'm a supply/substitute teacher involved in the state education system.
What do you want to know?If you ask questions then I know where to start.Do you want a complete rundown or just a general idea.I can't give a rundown now as I have to be at school early to help invigilate an GCSE art exam.I maybe able to come back later tonight(after I have been to the 6th form college to discuss my daughter's future grades in her A-levels).Perhaps you might have some questions by then?

...and don't forget, Mikey, that it's different in Scotland! Scotland has always had different systems underlying it society - justice, church, education, even currency...

It may depend on what you have been reading: Incognita talks of working in the state school system: so the first thing to remeber is that the state schools are not public, the public schools are actually private ones.... ummm... maybe I'll leave it up to Incognitas...

I will try and help too. Went through the Scottish Edu system - though it has changed recently (again) - and spent some time at an English boarding school. I would like to know the ages for the US grades, how old is a Grade 8, what is a Freshman, when do you start your education, are schools really like they are depicted on TV - with all the cliques etc. Until later...
BCNU - Crescent

I can help with the (admittedly now quite old) boarding school info, if you want some (as an inmate... ahem.... pupil, not teacher)

Well, I can definitely answer these US questions:

----I would like to know the ages for the US grades, how old is a Grade 8, what is a Freshman, when do you start your education, are schools really like they are depicted on TV - with all the cliques etc. Until later----

In the US, you have to be 5 by a certain date (sometimes the 1st day of school, sometimes a set date like 1 October, it depends on the area) to start kindergarten, and then age 6 by the same date the next year to start the 1st grade. This is just public (i.e., state funded) schools -- and most private and many public schools will sometimes let children in a little younger, if they pass certain tests and whatnot. The vast majority of children start school by kindergarten at the latest (many go to preschool as well, but this your official "school record" does not start until kindergarten), but the laws in most areas don't require children to be in school until 1st grade.

So ---
kindergarten is 5-6 year olds
1st grade is 6-7
2nd grade is 7-8
3rd grade is 8-9
4th grade is 9-10
5th grade is 10-11

Most elementary schools are kindergarten through 5th grade, although some go to 6th.

6th grade is 11-12
7th grade is 12-13
8th grade is 13-14

In most areas kids are at a "jr. high school" or "middle school" for 6th-8th grade, although in some areas this is 7th-9th,

9th grade is when you are a freshman, ages 14-15
10th grade is sophomores, ages 15-16
11th grade is juniors, ages 16-17
12th grade is seniors, ages 17-18

in most areas, 9th-12th grade is high school, although in some cases its 10th-12th.

Obviously there's some leeway in the ages, as some kids skip grades or are held back a year, etc.

So, for example, I started preschool when I was 2 and a half, kindergarten when I was almost 6, and graduated from high school at 18. Of course, then I was idiotic enough to go straight through college (university) and graduate school, so all told, I was in school full-time from 1977 to 1999.

As far as the cliques, etc., yes they are definitely there, although there is considerable variation in how "entrenched" they are, depending on age, area, etc. As far as how close they are to TV, I guess that depends on what shows you watch....

OK, here are some specific questions to start with:

what proportion of kids go to "state" vs. "public" schools?
do state schools have uniforms?
are kids divvied up among state schools according to what neighborhood they live in, or is it ability/test-score linked?
what proportion of kids go to boarding schools?
when is the earliest you can leave school?
at what ages to kids normally start and finish school?
what are the different levels of schools for the different ages? and what's all this about "forms"?
what's the difference between A-levels and O-levels?
what happens to the kids who are smart but can't do well on tests?
do you have homeschoolers there? what do people think of them?


mikey

Cheers Mikey i will answer what I can here....

1) Unknown, but the vast majority go to state schools, mostly Comprehensive schools, but some Grammar Schools (I do not know exactly what the diff is, but Grammar schools are on ability, I think - and there are only a few of them left)

2) Most schools have uniforms, but if you have to wear them is more or less down to the school (I think)

3) Schools mainly have a 'catchment area' and most of the kids will go to that school.

4) I think all boarders are private schools, but most boarding schools also have 'daybug' pupils

5) The earliest you can leave school is 16, as far as I know, but a gadgee in my school left at 14 to go to catering college.

6) Normal start at 5? and finish between 16 and 18

7) Ahhh, depends on where you are. In Scotland it is Primary 1, 2, 3 etc and then 1st year, 2nd year in the Secondary School. Forms were used at the private school I went to differentiate the years

8) O levels used to determine which A levels you could go on and do - The GCSE does that now (I think). A Levels then allow you into university. In Scotland it was O grades (now Standard Grades) which determined your Higher Grades, which was the main criterion for universities. However, you could also do a Certificate of Sixth Year Studies, in Scotland. This just seemed to be the first year of uni, at school.

9) Nowadays most of the courses are marked throughout the year (thank God, that I had the old versions, cause I can do well on tests, but constant, consistant work is a nightmare

10) We do have homeschoolers here, and they are on the rise. A gadgee at our work did it. I can understand why, he was German, living in a fairly rough area and had young kids - he was also a Christian fundamentalist of some kind. I think homeschools have their pluses and minuses.

Hope that helps, no doubt some of this is wrong, and will be corrected by smarter and more knowledgable peeps than me Well, until later....
BCNU - Crescent

About 8.
O-levels, CSEs are no longer the current set of exams at 15/16 (roughly 10th grade from your posting). They were replaced by GCSEs. These are 2 year courses, many of which now are examined on a continuous basis not one big exam at the end. After these you can leave.
A-Levels are taken at 17/18 - the senior year in the US. These are again 2 year courses but are a lot more in depth than GCSEs. Most people take 3 and these are what universities look at to select students. Again more and more are going for continual assesment rather than final examinations.
After this to continue academically you'd go to uni to study for 3 or 4 years to get a degree.

re. public and private schools.... neither of these are the equivalent of state funded schools, we call those... um... er... what do we call them? Just schools, I guess. Public schools are a hangover from days of old; basically they were open to the public, anyone could attend... as long as they could pay enough! And Private schools (I think) were only open to the gentry.

I attended normal schools from 4-10 (primary school) and 11-16 (secondary school, ending with my GCSE's (previously known as O-Levels)); then a public school from 17-18 (Sixth Form, doing A-Levels).

I have regretted the decision to do my sixth form at a public school ever since; I paid through my nose to do so, and I would have got just as good (if not better) results if I'd stayed at my old school.
And it was filled with upper class toffs with imprinted social and racial predujices... it was an eye opener if nothing else.

Some additional info:
2 - Some private schools have dress codes rather than uniforms
3 - If there is more than one school in your area, you can name a preference (there is usually a 'good' and a 'bad' one in this case). Also there are a number of state supported schools that are also linked to the Anglican/Catholic/even Moslem faith and you may have to prove a link to the religion for admission
4 - Some state schools, for instance in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland have 'hostels' where children from outlying areas can stay during the week
8 - It helps to remember that O stood for 'Ordinary' and A for 'Advanced'

And GCSE stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education.

And NUT stands for National Union of Teachers... which is great as we could call our teachers Nuts

- A Levels have recently changed - people starting their A level courses this year have to do about 5 subjects I think (I'm not entirely certain of this) which they do in one year and gain as AS Levels (which you could always do before - they're like half an A Level). Then for the second year you can either do more AS Levels or take some of your previous year's subjects on to A Level. Please correct me if I'm wrong! I did International Baccalaureate so I'm no expert even on the old A Level system.
- there are also courses called NVQs and GNVQs. GNVQ stands for General National Vocational Qualification, and they tend to be in subjects like Leisure & Tourism - vocational stuff, basically. There are different "levels" of GNVQs - level twos can be taken at the same time as GCSEs in some schools, while level threes are taken in sixth form, sometimes in conjuction with an A level or two. NVQs are, I believe, acquired while working, usually through a training scheme run by your employer.

There's also the perennial debate about whether the exams these days are as rigorous as they used to be.

'O' Levels: older exams, stopped about 10 years ago. There was a General Certificate of Education (GCE), which had two levels of attainment: Ordinary Level and Advanced Level, hence O Levels and A Levels.

CSE's were the Certificate of Secondary Education and were not as academically advanced as GCE O Levels.

O Levels and CSEs were replaced with GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondary Education). Those of us who tooks GCEs like to tease today's youngsters about how dificult they were compared to GCSEs.

Also, schoolchildren used to be First Years, Second Years, etc. in relation to how many years they had been at that type of school. So, in your first year at Junior School, you were a First Year. Then, after you finished your fourth and final year at Junior School and went up to Secondary School, you became a First Year again. Nowadays, it seems you are numbered according to how many years you have been in education, so that an old First Year in Secondary School is a Year 7 pupil (I think). This confuses the hell out of me. I took my exams when I was a Fifth Year (age 16), but my sons will be Year 11 when they take theirs.

Reading the above back to myself, if you can make sense of any of it, I salute you.

As a Scot the fact that both Americans and English went to more than two schools confused the hell out of me. Scots get Primary School (5 to 12 years old) and then Secondary School (12 to 18 years old). I believe Scots originally did Lowers or Highers. Lowers were two year courses, Highers three year and you decided in advance (or your teachers did) which ones to do. Then they changed it (a good while back I think) to O(rdinary) Grades and Highers, with everyone doing O Grades and then moving on to Highers, if the grades were good enough. Then they changed it again (while I was in the middle of it all) to Standard Grades and Highers. Hence I have O Grades in History, Physics, Chemistry and German and Standard Grades in English, Maths and French, but they count as being the same academic level. Highers (which have just changed, in a well bungled manner, to Higher Stills , everyone whinged they were changing the name, so they are still Highers ) were in my day a one year course (you did three to five subjects) and then at 18 you could do SYS (Sixth Year Studies) but only if you were trying to get a very exclusive Uni place did they ever count.
Then, of course there is University. Everything from three to five years for a basic degree, depending on where and what, and then even Postgraduate gubbins. Have I added to the general confusion then?

I wnet through the English Primary and secondary systems, ansd the Scottish tertiary system. My local authority - alone of those in the region - used a middle school system at the time, thus making my year/grading etc system different from my (Englis) friends and cousins - confusing?

The system went like this:

PRIMARY SCHOOL
1 Infants 4-5 year old
2 (Middle) Infants 5-6
3 (Top) Infants 6-7

1st Year Juniors 7-8
2nd Year Juniors 8-9
3rd Year Juniors 9-10

MIDDLE SCHOOL (introduction of French, Humanity subjects, science)
1st year 10-11
2nd year 11-12
3rd year 12-13

High School
3rd year 13-14 (Introduction of 3rd language, 3 science subjects)
4th year 14-15 (1st year of O level study)
5th year 15-16 (2nd year of O level)

SIXTH FORM (3/4 subjects only)
Lower Sixth 16-17 (1st year of A level study)
Upper Sixth 17-18 (2nd year of A level study)

Looks like a terrible mish-mosh, but it introduced languages and science a year earlier, and middle school provided a great intermediate level before the peer pressure etc of high school. It also let you get through the worst bit of adolescence in a... less exposed environment. Don't ask me why we kept the national high school year numbering system. Dead silly

Anybody else with opinions/experience of British Middle Schools?

Are there still such things as Prep Schools? (These are or were non-state pre-secondary school 8-13ish and gave people going into the public school system grounding in latin, french, handwriting etc)

I remember, during my boarding school days (11-18) that there was an influx of pupils at age 13/14 at the start of GCSEs.

Yes, that is what I went to - a Prep school, thank you NexusSeven
BCNU - Crescent

OOOooh! You must all be the type of posh kids that the nasty kids used to shout at out of the bus windows!

I'm so glad that I've left such innocent experiences of childhood behind...

(This is straight from the horse's mouth - I am in the first college/6th form year to experience the new system.)

You are slightly wrong about AS/A levels, and you're out of date concerning GNVQs. Here it is:

Most people take four AS levels in the first year, or five for some, especially those taking Further Maths. These are *not* the same as the old AS levels. The old ones were like an A level sliced lengthways - you study the same content at half the depth (how this works is both above and beneath me, if you see what I mean ). The new ones are exactly the first year of an A2 course, or an A level sliced widthways. You can drop an AS level to continue three in the next year as A2s. It seems (as I have been considering this) that you can also drop two and take a new AS level for the same UCAS points* (which are also changing). They are giving universities headaches because they don't know quite what these new qualifications are worth, and they're also causing headaches for pople like me because the uni course documentation isn't availible yet.

The A2 levels are more or less the same as the old A levels.

There is also a new part of the curriculum - Key Skills. This is giving lots of people headaches as the teachers don't know exactly what they're supposed to do (this will change), but mostly because it takes away another free period . These are simple courses at the same sort of level as GCSE which are worth taking because they give you more UCAS points. You don't have to attend them if you already are taking similar courses - for example, I don't need to attend the Number lessons because I take Maths - though the exams are still necessary.

Advanced GNVQs are now called Vocational A levels. I don't think they've changed much. They take up more periods per week than normal A-levels. I know very little else about them or NVQs (although my dad tried an NVQ a couple of years back).

Perhaps this is too verbose, but I couldn't stop myself.

*UCAS stands for Universities and Colleges Admissions Service. They are a non-profit who produce literature about further and higher education, including listings of courses, and provide a sort of standardised front-end to uni and college admissions. (Many people don't use it for college because they go to sixth forms which are really part of their school.) UCAS points are a system for quantifying the value of various pre-degree qualifications based on the types of qualification and the grades achieved.