h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

We probably all recognise a cinematic technique used to make us immediately assume one group of characters in a film are the 'bad guys'.

They ride their horses at a gallop into the public square without consideration for property or pedestrian damages, scattering chickens and geese and fair maidens and upsetting water troughs. The Normans, Romans, outlaws, Huns and other assorted hordes have often been depicted this way.

The term, to describe this inconsiderate behaviour, that comes to (my) mind is 'running roughshod'.

I hope that those with access to OED might be able to report (at length) how this phrase came to be, and just exactly how it is meant to be used. As always, responses from those with imaginations but no access to OED are equally welcomed.

But I warn you I will have difficulty believing that such excellent horsemen as the Mongols, the Aphgans or the Kurds were somehow deficient in the horseshoe arts compared to the village and farmer folks they vandalised.


~jwf~

Hi ~jfw~

"The term, to describe this inconsiderate behaviour, that comes to (my) mind is 'running roughshod'."

Surely this is 'riding roughshod'. At least that is the phrase I recognise.

The Free Dictionary has 'ride...' and 'run...' roughshod as synonyms. And then this from allwords.com "1. Said of a horse: with horse-shoes that have projecting nails which prevent the horse from slipping in wet weather."

turvy

PS Are Aphgans the arty types living in the foothills of the Hindu Kush?

On a slight tangent...in Anthony Burgess's 'A Mouthful Of Air', a book about "languages, mostly English" (*highly* recommended), he discusses the synchronic and diachronic varieties of English. He talks about walking in the hills above his native Manchester with a non-native friend on a very rainy day. They enter a pub, and one of the incumbents propping up the bar asks them, "Art thi witshert?" The friend is totally perplexed by this foreign tongue, but Burgess recognises that it is plain English for "Are you wet-shod" (ie "Have you got wet shoes?").

His point is that if it's not English - then what is it? And can we truly say that we speak English if we don't understand it?

(Sorry. Do carry on.)

Ah! So horseshoes with protruding nails would be especially aggressive.

Am I right in thinking that Mongols didn't have horseshoes or stirrups? Strange, because I seem to remember that stirrups gave the Romans the advantage in horseback archery. But then...the Native Americans *definitely* didn't have stirrups.


(I don't know about anyone else, but I always wanted to be a Red Indian when I was young, never a cowboy. I feel that this is at the root of my subsequent political development.)

>I hope you will correct if I'm still missing the point [in thinking that] 'begging a question' is when a question is framed in such a way as to anticipate an expected answer.

Indeed you are not quite to the point yet. What you describe is 'asking a leading question'. 'Begging the question' on the other hand does not refer to asking a question at all, but to settling one. It is the translation of the Latin 'petitio principii' which in turn comes from the Greek. Wiki gives this quote from Aristotle:

"Begging or assuming the point at issue consists (to take the expression in its widest sense) in failing to demonstrate the required proposition."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

I do hope we get more about roughshod in the coming days. I am particularly excited about the possible aggressive qualities of half-hammered nails.


And to the Recumbentman for his patience!
I am still trying to get my head round the notion that begging the question "does not refer to asking a question at all, but to settling one".

But the wiki link he provides does make a couple of good points.
Firstly a fairly clear definition:

"An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way. Such an argument is valid in the sense in which logicians use that term, yet provides no reason at all to believe its conclusion."

And secondly, it allows that my ignorance at least has some company:

"Today, the phrase is also frequently seen in a different usage with the meaning 'raise the question'. In academic contexts this use is rare and widely regarded as incorrect, but it has nevertheless become very common in the news media."


~jwf~

surely the thing with riding roughshod is that it is a phrase which indicates, as ~jwf~ mentions in the first post on this, a lack of respect for the possesions and environments through which one is riding.

Riding a horse with protruding horseshoe nails through anywhere is likely to cause serious damage to the fabric of the ground. Particularly if it is hard. Hence, I would have thought, the use of the phrase with respect to ne'er do wells and assorted undesirables.

BTW - just got this , not sure if it is a new one or not, appols if it is!

Once again, The Washington Post has published the winning submissions to its
yearly contest, in which readers are asked to supply alternative meanings
for common words.

The winners are:

1. Coffee (n.) the person upon whom one coughs.

2. Flabbergasted (adj.) appalled over how much weight you have gained.

3. Abdicate (v.) to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.

4. Esplanade (v.) to attempt an explanation while drunk.

5. Willy-nilly (adj.) impotent.

6. Negligent (adj.) describes a condition in which you absent-mindedly answer the door in your nightgown.

7. Lymph (v.) to walk with a lisp.

8. Gargoyle (n.) olive-flavoured mouthwash.

9. Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller.

10. Balderdash (n.) a rapidly receding hairline.

11. Testicle (n.) a humorous question on an exam.

12. Rectitude (n.) the formal, dignified bearing adopted by proctologists.

13. Pokemon (n) a Rastafarian proctologist.

14. Oyster (n.) a person who sprinkles his conversation with Yiddishisms.

15. Frisbeetarianism (n.): The belief that, when you die, your soul flies up
onto the roof and gets stuck there.

16. Circumvent (n.) an opening in the front of boxer shorts worn by Jewish
men.

Good old Washington Post!

I liked Stephen Fry's one on 'I'm Sorry...':

"Countryside - Killing Piers Morgan."

>> ...serious damage to the fabric of the ground. <<


Over the weekend I tried to imagine how this phrase came to be and did in fact come up with images of hard clay laneways and the trimmed lawns of the great English countryside which were no doubt disturbed by those with not enough care or cash to properly maintain their horses.

Glad to hear it's all just a British class thingy and not a reflection on the great horsie traditions of the assorted barbarian and mongol hordes.

Would still appreciate some insight into an OED reference on the subject, though now I fear it may be all too Britspecific and class conscious for any real enlightenment in our new classless society.


~jwf~

when I were a lad ...

.... roughshod meant wearing outdoor shoes (especially hobnails) indoors. Hence running roughshod (for we lowly ones who couldn't afford riding horses ) could refer to scratching the parquet flooring, (or riving up the oilcloth as the case may be).


>>all too Britspecific and class conscious for any real enlightenment in our new classless society.<<


reminds me of soon after we'd started French at school and I asked my mother why the words for meat (pork, beef, mutton) were French but the corresponding animal names weren't.

Her response: "tells you which folks raised 'em an' which folks ate 'em"

Do many people ask their mothers about stuff they're learning at school? I never got much help from either of my parents on many subjects, despite asking them for it. However, I do like to think I have an idea what my kids were doing at school, although I was never asked for advice or guidance. Sad to think that we live in ignorance of the other generation's knowledge and/or ignorance.

My children often ask me about stuff. But they know the sort of things I'm likely to know the answer to.

Ask?

My parents decided my primary school wasn't doing enough for me so my Dad used to give me homework when I got in. Sums, essays that sort of thing. Yes - primary school!

I later found out that this was actually justified as the teachers in question had decided I was backwards (their term) since I have absolutely no musical ability or rhythm whatsoever.

Oh yes - that reminds me of our tea times, where the main topics of conversation were mental arithmetic exercises at the table!

Which reminds me of a conversation between a mother and her son I overheard on a train once. She was testing him on his squares of 12, 13, 14, 15 etc. The funny part was: how was she to know if his answers were right!? (She obviously didn't know)

Is this a deviation from our topic? If so, sorry. But two posts off topic in 13-and-a-half-thousand isn't bad.

We can all pat ourselves on the back.

it's no worse than some of the major deviations a few blobs ago!

But what you say about older generations and their knowledge is true. Always seems to have happened though, hence why languages and dialects die out. You hear of people saying that their grandparent spoke whatever but they never took the time to learn.

But then when you are young everything is new knowledge so you have to filter it somehow.

>>You hear of people saying that their grandparent spoke whatever but they never took the time to learn.

You also hear of a few cases - eg Wales - where children learn a language that their grandparents *didn't* know. And I'm certain that my own granparents' knowledge of, say, Jamaican Patois was strictly limited.

Anyway, I sincerely hope that my children aren't taught some of the things that I was.
When I think back to all the crap I learnt in High School/ It's a wonder I can think at all.

Changing topics...

The word 'to' seems to be frequently pronounced as 'tu' (short U). Recent examples I've heard include Martin Amis, and a couple of business/financial type people. I'm thinking of it as 'Received Estuary'. Any observations of how widespread it is?


Speaking of Estuary English...

The singer/songwriter/musician, Regina Spektor (www.reginaspektor.com), is noted for various vocal ticks, including on one song a glo'al sstop in the word 'heart'. She sings it hea' ah' ah' ah' ah' ah' aeart. . However...at one point, she also sings the word 'be'er' (better) in such a way that it doesn't sound like it's meant to be part of her schtick. Has anyone noticed Estuary English spreading to NYC? Or might it be in vogue amongst fashionably Anglophilic types?

Didnt she also leave in Russia till she was six years old?

That might explain an idiosyncratic approach to pronunciation.




One thing that bothers me when Im reading but Ive noticed in speech more and more as time goes by is people using not just subject specific jargon but abrreviations too.

I dont go around saying, "oh yeah he's a PRU kid" becuse I expect that people wouldnt understand what I meant it gets even more confusing when some abbreviations mean different things in different fields.