h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

~jwf~

"In Canicula's case I think he is ... "

There ... even without trying, you've made me think, again.
Without any noticeable cause, other than that the name ends in "a", I assumed that Canicula is female. I say this not because I need to know, nor that it is likely to make any difference, but just to indicate how different inferences can be drawn from the same the information.

Still shaking my head I shall now try to concentrate on "ic"s and "ical"s and the rest.

*bookmarking*

Ben
(a comic) et al

jwf, the only common usage of 'academical' over here I can think of is in the name 'Hamilton Academical' (a Scottish football team familiar from Saturday results on the news). That particular usage seems to account for about 20% of all the google hits on 'academical'

Having a quick Google look at first few hits of the the singular word, I notice Belfast, Glasgow, Edinburgh, some obvious US sites, and a few translated Eastern European ones

It does seem to have a rather Scottish bias in usage. I assume the Russian/Czech might come from a relatively literal transaltion of word modifiers from the native language (or they were taught by a Scot?).

Fine, I did better the last time? Maybe I was writing it up without [i]thinking[/i].

The consciousness hindering the flow of the unconsciousness.

Glad I am posing nice examples and some challenges, will try to keep the pace up.

Please, explain to me the 'since' issue. Don't you say 'ever since'?
or does the use of since require past tense... ever since I have lived versus ever since I live... ah I think I see where this is going.

My bet is on 'academic' btw. My bad.

Fine, I did better the last time? Maybe I was writing it up without thinking.

The consciousness hindering the flow of the unconsciousness.

Glad I am posing nice examples and some challenges, will try to keep the pace up.

Please, explain to me the 'since' issue. Don't you say 'ever since'?
or does the use of since require past tense... ever since I have lived versus ever since I live... ah I think I see where this is going.

My bet is on 'academic' btw. My bad.

Canicula,
Your reference to "unconscious" is one that, to me, suggests "subconcious", although I am aware that all this "help" could cause you to fall between the British English and American English stools. I regard unconcious as relating to an action which occurs automatically without thought, and subconscious as an occurrence arising from previous thought, preparation or planning.
(Comments anyone?)
It is a very good sign that you are not having to translate your thoughts deliberately, and most of the awkward corners that bother you, will wear off with use.
You reminded me of the first time I became aware of this redundant translation phenomenon. I'd been in France for 3 or 4 days and when my morning call (knock on the door) came I said - half awake - "Oui, qu' est - ce qui' il y a?" instead of my usual "Wha ja want?" That woke me up immediately.

"Ever since" will logically take a past tense as it points back to the time when whatever it is began. It matters not that whatever it is continues to be the case:
#Ever since I was a young boy
I've played the silver ball
From Soho down to Brighton
I must have played them all ... #

The Pinball Wizard was still playing the tables but The Who ensured that he was grammatically correct even if he lost his crown.

(Music ? at:
http://users.cis.net/sammy/pinball.htm)

btw, the phrase in the original Canicula posting "doubtfree american" would seem, to me, to be an obvious substitution for "doubtless american" where I can see that the source (whatever Canicula was thinking) could have been translated as either. POerhaps the german equivalent of doubtless is directly translated as doubtfree. Whatever?!

As for -ic and -al I'd say that -ic is as ~jwf~ says. Something that is historic would be, for example, a 14th century castle (ie an historic castle or monument). However a book about a 14th Century castle would be historical. Which probably means the opposite is true!

p.s. there is a letter in this mornings newspaper bemoaning the rise in the use of 'and' to start sentences stating that 'It is grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. It is used to conjoin a word with a word, a clause with a clause or a sentence with a sentence" and goes on to say this is anoither example of falling standards.

Yes, it is. Doubtless is "zweifellos" or "zweifelsohne" (somewhat old-fashioned) in German.

or various other subject change smileys

Informal and formal registers are the style of language used in different situations. The Queen's speech would hardly start with "Yo" or "Listen you lot" or even "I've been doing a bit of thinking about this".

Conversely, you wouldn't say to your kids "The management kindly requests that chewing gum be placed in the receptacle provided after use. Please refrain from attaching used chewing gum to the underside of the furniture".

I'll leave you to work out which is formal and which is informal and when each should be used.

What Wandrin star wants us to think about them I'm not sure. I could make a start by noting one feature of the above examples - it is often more informal to use the first person, more formal to use the third person, but this is not hard and fast. Further general rule to this effect: you would never use "I" in a business letter.



The problem that German speakers have with "since" is not the use of the word itself, but which qualifiers and which tense come after it. As with the ubiquitious and indispensible words "dont" and "y" in French, far too little time is spent on these.

Since must ALWAYS be followed by a specific point in time. And then it's a question of which tense to use after it.

Since Tuesday (It has been raining since Tuesday)
Since old leatherhead kicked the bucket (my father's expression - anyone know where it comes from?) That's the best steak I've eaten since old leatherhead kicked the bucket.
Since I've been a teacher.

The simple reason for the importance in choice of tense is best demonstrated by conjugating example three above wrongly.

If you say "since I am a teacher" you mean something completely different. You are then saying "As/because/(and implicitly by dint of my authority or advanced knowledge of this particular subject) I am a teacher, I think I can answer this question reliably."

Or "Since I am a teacher, I can't take my holidays in June or November". Which means "Because I am a teacher, I am obliged to remain at home in term time and can't take advantage of cheap off-peak-season offers. A German speaker, however, would interpret this to mean "since the day I started teaching, I haven't been able to take holidays [outside of term time]

I do hope I have confused you........ er sorry, sensibilised you, anglophones and teutophones alike, to the origins of the difficulties.



Of course, we could go on to the "If" clauses. The problem here is that TOO MUCH time is spent drumming these rules into the German students of English, to the extent that even my own kids get confused.

But English-speaking songwriters are mucking things up for us. There's one line in a song (sung by Rod Stewart, among others, but I can't remember what the song is) "If I knew then what I know now."

"If I'd have known then what I know now" (doesn't fit the tune, tbough!)

"Since must ALWAYS be followed by a specific point in time"
Since when?

Sorry
Although I guess that still counts as 'when' is a question as to a specific point in time?

Yes, I specifically want to know:
What words do you consider polite when asking where the toilet is?
Do you think there's a difference in meaning between 'kids' and 'children'?
Have you ever told anyone to 'p*ss off'? Was this in anger or were you laughing at the time?
Do you speak to your children (offspring/kids) differently from the way you address your parents?
If you were a teacher of English what level of formaility would you be aiming for? (My students are, on average, 40 years my junior; is it really silly for me to attempt to use more up-to-date terms?)
How do you pronounce the word 'often'?
What do you call your boss?
Do you ever use words like 'dear', 'love' 'sweetheart' to (almost) strangers? Because you don't know or have forgotten their name?
Talk among yourselves, ladies and gents, whiles I think of some more

Oooh I'd forgotten this thread.Look Mummy its good,can I come back here another day?

*beams at everyone*

What words do you consider polite when asking where the toilet is?
- I always found this one odd as apparently 'Loo' is the polite upperclass word. Lavatory is crude and toilet is in between (presumably cos it is from the french?) Bog is currently considered the height of sophistication in these terms in the UK.


Do you think there's a difference in meaning between 'kids' and 'children'?
- Slightly. Kids is more slang and, to my mind more in keeping with what offspring are really like, ie a bit naughty, kids being kids whereas children is more formal and more likely applied in a more regimented area, such as schools (ha!) and the like.

Have you ever told anyone to 'p*ss off'? Was this in anger or were you laughing at the time?
- Yes I have and in both senses. You can get a lot of invective into the phrase. Also used as in 'I don;t believe you' and also the answer to the question "Why did the condom fly across the room?".

Do you speak to your children (offspring/kids) differently from the way you address your parents?
- Don;t have any but I try to treat speak to my nephews and nieces as equals. But then I do make an extra effort to refrain from dubious language and to be clearer in what I say so I can give them clear examples.

If you were a teacher of English what level of formaility would you be aiming for? (My students are, on average, 40 years my junior; is it really silly for me to attempt to use more up-to-date terms?)
- I would be aiming for a level of formality whereby I was respected as the teacher but not wanting to be seen as the fount of all knowledge. The students should should feel that they have a valid input to the lessons as well as being there to learn from me. Perhaps being addressed as Mr. Ictoan would establish the initial level but no reason why that should remain if the class respected you.

How do you pronounce the word 'often'?
- off-ten. Although I do hear offen sometimes.

What do you call your boss?
- when he can hear? By his first name. And his boss, and right up to the top of the company. Same for female and male bosses. In fact on the dd occaisons I am introduced to someone in a work or client environment and they are called Mr. Smith or Ms. Smith it always seems a) overly stuffy and formal and b) if it is the person themselves insisting on it then I would automatically be wary of them as being a bit full of themselves and possibly arrogant. Vertainly someone who has attained some degree of authority and wants everyone to know about it. i guess this is a reaction to all the trendy soft managment skills brought in from the 80's when bosses were encouraged to pretend they were real people and use first names. By insisting on being a Mr. or Ms. or whatever you are saying 'i am the boss and don;t you forget it' The only occaisons where i would expect a surname and title to be used would be the more formal ones. Indeed I would call someone with Dr., Rev., Lord, Sir or whatever by their surname and title until they asked me otherwise out of respect.

Do you ever use words like 'dear', 'love' 'sweetheart' to (almost) strangers? Because you don't know or have forgotten their name?
- nope. never. I am useless at remembering names and have therefore a store of useful means with which to identify someone without using their name. From the assumption that you know who I mean to the generic 'thingy'. It is rare I have to admit to not knowing someones name, and by then it is usually so far down the line it is usually put down to temporary amnesia!


But that's just me

It's kinda funny to read the doubtfree discussion because normally I am never using this word, and I had simply a bad day with some cob webs in my brain.

Doubtfree is the German zweifelsfrei, while doubtless is zweifelsohne. Two different words with a slightly different meaning.

At least you had fun and is sparked discussion.

At the first look some comments sounded snobby and arrogant to me, but the advantages of you willing to give me advice outweigh it quite a bit.

I am challenging me to think about how the forming of language takes place in the brain and that the stages of the process are fluent (ah right or wrong???). I would like to know whether there is a true bilingual (or even multilingual) or whether it is always one primary which produces the thoughts and an internal tranlsator uses whatever he made positive experience with.

To the post, the use to honey and sweetheart appears to be a typical habit of the South where it is mandatory to be polite and frienldy.


thanks, honeys!

What words do you consider polite when asking where the toilet is?

I tend to use 'loo' when talking in Britain in all company (though I do so with deliberation sometimes when I feel not everyone present may find it appropriate) and 'rest room' (though I cringe every time) when in NY or to an American - I work for an American company, so that's often - unless I know them well and they're well-travelled.

Unlike Ictoan, I was taught that 'lavatory' is much more polite than 'toilet'. These days, though, I tend to look on it as a bit petit bourgeois.


Do you think there's a difference in meaning between 'kids' and 'children'?

'Kids' is definitely informal and 'children' formal. Again, as a child, I was taught that 'kid' was impolite because it really meant the offspring of a goat. I shall probably use 'children' throughout as I still find it difficult when to forget that when writing!


Have you ever told anyone to 'p*ss off'? Was this in anger or were you laughing at the time?

Both. There is a wide range of words that are quite offensive to some but have become almost the adjective or expression of choice for others. I use 'b*llocks' a lot.


Do you speak to your children (offspring/kids) differently from the way you address your parents?

No kids, but when speaking to my godson (4) or his sister (6) - the children I talk to most often - I tend to think carefully about what I'm saying. This is mainly because they simply can't grasp the abstract and I seem to spend all my time there!

I never swear in front of my parents, nor would they ever swear in front of me.


If you were a teacher of English what level of formaility would you be aiming for? (My students are, on average, 40 years my junior; is it really silly for me to attempt to use more up-to-date terms?)

I suppose it depends on who your students are. With children, I would expect a fair degree of formality (at school, I referred to a number of my teachers, not all, by their first names, but always with unfailing politeness and more care in what I was saying than with my peers). However, with adults (young or old), I would expect more informality no matter what the age difference between student and teacher.

I think you should use language you're comfortable with. If that means experimenting with something 'younger', just make sure you get it right. If not, just draw their attention to alternatives.

I am reminded of the use of 'tu' in French, which was something we were never really taught at school (the rules we learnt then seem very old-fashioned now), which is a shame. On the other hand, the rules are complex for foreigners (especially in a work context) and being taught too much informality would also have been a problem.


How do you pronounce the word 'often'?

'Of-ten' (not 'off-ten'). I've noticed a tendency in myself to pronounce things a bit more literally since I started to take an interest in Japanese. I'm fairly certain I always used to say 'offen'. You should also find out how people say 'garage' (well, I find that interesting). I say 'garridge', which probably says more about me than I care to think about.


What do you call your boss?

Have always, always used first names. But in all encounters with strangers, I try to listen for how they refer to themselves. If Andrew Smith refers to himself as 'Andrew', I will, if he uses 'Andy', so will I. If he signs himself 'Mr Smith', that's what I'll use. I cringe at people who seem oblivious to this. I've seen countless e-mail exchanges which go something like:

Dave,

Hiya, how're you doing

Mike
-----------------------------------------------
Mike,

I am fine

David
-----------------------------------------------
Dave,

Great stuff. Wife 'n' kids?

Mike
-----------------------------------------------
Mike,

Josephine is very well, thank you. Tarquin has ....

David

etc. for pages.

I think you can get it wrong once and then you're just being rude.


Do you ever use words like 'dear', 'love' 'sweetheart' to (almost) strangers? Because you don't know or have forgotten their name?

Never. I'm terrible at remembering people's names (my care and attention above notwithstanding) and hate having to admit I've forgotten, but couldn't bring myself to use any of those words. In the rare case where I can remember plenty about the person, except their name, and know we were good friends once (this is shocking as I'm the tender side of 40), I might just use 'mate' in the initial greeting, but probably not.

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I would say Loo also, but here in America I ask for the restroom now, after a few raised eyebrows and confused looks as to what a 'loo' actually was.

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'Kids' is informal and 'children' formal. I never did like being referred to as a 'kid' when I was child, but then again I didn't like to be referred to as a child either.....I don't call my child a kid if I can help it.

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Yes, and in anger and jokingly. I try not to swear tho, so that when I do feel the need, its more satisfying and shocking. I find that here the term, 'I am pissed at you' is used allot as a description of someone who is incensed by somet or other. Also in Britain if you go out on the piss, you are off out on an exploration of tolerance to alkehol...which confuses Americans somewhat.

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Of course....my five year old, has five year old issues as opposed to my parents who have more experience and older issues!

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For children and developing teenagers (upto 16), I think it is socially important to learn correct and polite manners of address. For older students this formality can be dropped in favour of first names. I hated in school when teachers would address you by your last name with no reference to your first name or Mr, Miss etc.

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With the 't'

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I will be formal until invited to use first name.

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Good grief, no.

mark.

*sigh* I only got 2 birthday cards today and one was from work......

At least I had a few birthday wishes on my journal...yays!