h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

thought I might join into this interesting conversation, as I observed that some people who speak German are contributing. to the question about how teacher and pupils should address each other, I think the system I'm in at the moment is not bad. we call our teachers Mr/Mrs..., only if we're making fun of our English teacher we call him Master, because he told us that during his childhood in England teachers had to be called Master. the teachers call the students by their first name, and in the upper classes (age 16 and up) they use the first name and "Sie" which shows a bit more respect. only some teachers say "Frau ..." to the students. the Germans don't use the equivalent of Miss any more. only sometimes to waitresses it's "Fräulein!", but that's a bit condescending.
about the learning process, I don't think that this goes fluently. I started to learn English when I was ten, and for about 1 or 2 years, I had to really learn vocabulary and grammar. but after that I started to read books and watch films in English and everything went fine. I know I'm arrogant, but I think that my English is pretty good. When I started French, I had a hard time, only recently I begin to get a natural sense of the language. In english I never think of the time I'm using or the sentence structure, it just comes to my mind. And for one year I learned Spanish, but let's not talk about that...

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"loo", "bathroom"
And don't assume you are allowed to use it. "Where are the facilities?" is too forward in a strange house - definitely "May I use your loo/toilet/bathroom.


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Yes - agree with everyone else


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No, but I've thought it. More indignation and frustration than anger. It wouldn't be my idea of a joke.


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Not consciously.


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Quite high, but always with an explanation as to how to tone it down in certain situations.


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Offen. Although maybe off-ten - depending on the sound of the whole sentence. Not sure, to be honest!!!


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This is Germany. You're lucky if you know your boss's Christian name (although these days it's possible with e-mail)


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No. I try and force myself to confess to the person that I've forgotten their name (It's not so much the name as a terrible memory for faces. Once I know who they are I can summon up a huge data base about them - phone number, etc.). Confessions of this sort avoid any later embarrassments and - as the result of this survey has shown - it's quite common for people to forget names. As manolan implies, and as I am sure we most of us feel, it is just plain rude to forget someone's name. It means you don't care about them and aren't paying attention to them. I certainly feel better if someone knows my name.



This question is not just a question of language, but a question of culture and social standards. Which is why we have different language registers in the first place.

I also think that this is a veeery inteeeresting thread...

I do enjoy that language can be very subtle and have so many different meanings and nuances depending on local dialect and the person that is expressing it. Not to mention the myriad ways of the written form including punctuation, which can add more finely tuned distinction to what is being communicated.

Susanne, personally, I don't think that you sound arrogant. I would say more that you are 'confident' in your ability to understand 'English', arrogance tends to imply that you assume that you know everything, and being that you find this thread interesting..it seems to me more that you are poking fun at your 'self assumed arrogance'

Hello btw

Hey Trillian

I am actually the other way, I can remember faces-ish but I am terrible when it comes to names...

I hate it on the phone, when someone calls you, and you can be talking for a while - this person happens to know you quite well or has had you sussed from when you first met...will suddenly pop the loaded question...

'you don't remember my name do you?'

At my school (all boys grammar school) all the male teachers were 'Sir' and, somewhat condescendingly as I know think, the female teachers were (rarely) Ma'am or more likely Miss or Miss/Mrs and surname.

Us pupils were, from 1st through to upper 6th form refered to by our surnames.

Didn't you just hate that Ictoan? I know I did...it always seemed to me degrading and some teachers seemed to have a special sort of sneer when they pronounced your surname distastefully. Grrrrr

aye, almost as much as I hate posting that I went to a grammar school and then using 'know' instead of 'now' in the same post!

By the way Canicula, which posts, or parts of posts, did you find somewhat arrogant? None of mine were intended to be and none of the ones I read would I have assumed to be, just interested, maybe another mindset / style thing?

I read it as 'now' and didn't notice the 'k' I think it sneaked on in there, and its not your fault at all....

Innovative spelling and punc is for the creative imaginative genius..

>> ..shocking as I'm the tender side of 40.. <<

Serious question:
Which side of 40 is the tender side?

If I'd been forced to guess at this in my younger years, I'd probably have said the younger side would have to be considered more tender.

But experience has 'since' taught me that those of us over 40 are pretty soft and getting softer. Or, do I simply fail to understand the true meaning of tenderness? As I recall 'tenderising' is a clever thing that butchers do with a hammer.


jwf

I'll second that - every day over 40 and you wake up feeling as though someone's been hammering away all night.

>> At the first look some comments sounded snobby and arrogant to me, but the advantages of you willing to give me advice outweigh it quite a bit. <<

Please understand that no one is trying to embarass you or insult you personally. On the contrary, we are trying to help you prevent embarassing yourself among a less open-minded audience such as your new neighbours in the Southern US of A.

At the risk of conjouring up disturbing images of stereotypical Southerners, I think it's obvious that there are those there who might easily label you with unkind gross generalisations about 'forriners' and never allow you the opportunity to learn the local dialect.

>> ...the use to honey and sweetheart appears to be a typical habit of the South where it is mandatory to be polite and frienldy. <<

Yes they are to each other and to anyone smarter or richer or better dressed. But they don't want to be hearing it from no white trash forriner gittin too familiar. Always be polite, save friendly for trusted friends.

The lessons you might learn here will be much less painful in the long run. You are a brave and distinguished soul and obviously smart enough to realise that our cudgels here are meant to train your reflexes not beat you down into the Mississippi mud.


~jwf~

>> ..normally I am never using this word, and I had simply a bad day.. <<

Two points here.
The x-ing after the present tense 'am' will mark you as a forriner. "...normally I would never use this word..." says what you mean. Or, "...normally I am reluctant to use this word..."

As a rule you should never say "I AM" followed by any x-ing form unless you are actually and immediately presently engaged in x-ing whatever.

For example someone says "What are doing under the car?" and you say, "I am changing the oil, or I am fixing the muffler, or I am looking for leaks, or I am trying get some shade."

Unless it describes activity that is ongoing in the here and now, never follow I AM with a present participle (x-ing). I am not saying it isn't possible just that it's a form YOU should avoid entirely because of the many potential pitfalls.

And secondly:
"I had simply a bad day" also reveals a Germanic syntax of thought. Did you mean "I had, to put it simply, a bad day.."
Or did you possibly mean, "I had a simply bad day.."
Try shuffling the words around:
I simply had a bad day..
Simply, I had a bad day..
I was simply havING a bad day..

In any case, I hope tomorrow will be a better day.

~jwf~

>> Please, explain to me the 'since' issue. <<

A very complex issue.
As you've seen from others here, since can mean 'as', 'because', and variations of 'wherefore' and 'therefore' (which are themslves struggling for survival).

Bad example: "Since I've been here since they opened, I was first served since I was here first. But they haven't served me since."

But the 'forrin' use we've been picking on is more like:
"Since I am here they have been open."
Unhappily, that way incorrectly suggests the only reason they are open is because you are there. I hasten to point out, since you are likely to ask, that this is a highly unlikely circumstance. Try: "They have been open since I got here." or even more (perhaps too) accurately, "They were open when I got here and they have been open ever since."


~jwf~

here's something nice for those interrested in language: I've read some time ago an article about computer translations english-german, with the example of "time flies like an arrow". various results: "Zeit fliegt wie ein Pfeil", literal translation without any sense, "Zeitfliegen mögen einen Pfeil", that's timeflies(apparently a new species) cherrish arrows, "messe die Zeit der Fliegen wie ein Pfeil", that's time your flies as if you were an arrow.

My grandfather pronounced 'often' to rhyme with 'orphan'.
My parents said 'off-en' and so do I.
My "children" pronounce the t, but not always.

For several years I taught this as the the neutral form, but am now of the opinion that it's pseudo posh and now use 'toilet' because it's cognate with so many other European languages (in my youth this was "non-U" - anyone else remember that?)
Slightly connected - what term would you use to mean 'puke"?

>>What words do you consider polite when asking where the toilet is?

toilet, loo - the former used with old people who won't be used to the word loo, which only came into common speech in Ireland in about 1970, the latter everywhere else

>>Do you think there's a difference in meaning between 'kids' and 'children'?

Absolutely. Children is more formal.

>>Have you ever told anyone to 'p*ss off'? Was this in anger or were you laughing at the time?

Both. I often tell my children to piss off as a joke. Saying 'Piss off' when I am angry is a way of expressing annoyance in a very mild way.

>>Do you speak to your children (offspring/kids) differently from the way you address your parents?

I would use far more references to literature, films etc when talking to my children. We have seen a lot of films in common, read a lot of books in common, have listened to the same music. I haven't that much in common with my father, so he doesn't understand me when I throw in a Pratchett reference, or a quote from Star Wars.

>>If you were a teacher of English what level of formaility would you be aiming for? (My students are, on average, 40 years my junior; is it really silly for me to attempt to use more up-to-date terms?)
I think an English teacher has to teach people the fully grammatical constructions but also the common uses of English. Starting a sentence with "and" has always been correct English; it just wasn't considered so by the grammarians.

>>How do you pronounce the word 'often'?
Off-en. I was taught that it is an error to pronounce the t, although I am no longer convinced there is such a thing as an error in speech.

>>What do you call your boss?
I call her by her first name.

>>Do you ever use words like 'dear', 'love' 'sweetheart' to (almost) strangers? Because you don't know or have forgotten their name?

Absolutely not. In fact, I am stuck for something to call them, because the old formal 'sir' and 'madam' are no longer used, without there being anything to replace them.

I normally would ask about where the toilet is if I needed to. Being caught short and not knowing where to go could be potentially very embarassing.

Often - Offen as in bach. Or if I need to make sure I'm being understood (correct diction in presentations and on stage, though I've not done that for a long time) of-ten

Icotan, you did not offend me at all, and I enjoyed all of your contributions.

I am wondering (snickers) whether jwf knows German so well that he knows how Germans translate? Funny.

You are confusing me, dear! Present and clear danger! I mean it this way. I don't know but aren't you particularly picky? Isn't there a difference between the more casual talk and the formal high educated talk? I have heard the use of the term : I am xing so often, that I had to assume it's a correct use.

Kick the bucket.... ever thought of the old days, when people got hanged, standing on something (a bucket) which was kicked away?

What else? Keep on going, I am having fun reading your comments.

Oh, if you want to know it was the >>...almost a perfect impression of a comic stereotype of European-American...<< which I found offending.

Helena - which marks Canicula as a she.

PS: Canicula is latin puppy and the name of the dogstar Sirius.