h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes Trillian's Child's husband (), that's right. In fact, when people talk about the Romance languages having evolved from Latin, they might be more specific and say that those languages evolved from the Vulgate. Wouldn't you agree?

French and Italian yes. Spanish no. Roumanian I don't know.

Are you saying Spanish came from literary Latin?

*ignores vulgarities*

OK if 'cider' isn't related to El Cid then maybe it's related to a-cid. It can be very acidic. Acid is produced in the fermentation process and is often quite evident in cheaper wines.

~jwf~

hernce why it used to be able to give you a hangover that'd last the rest of your life, with the acid from the apples eating the lead used in the presses. Mmmm, alcoholic lead

What is the relationship between spare as in spare potatoes going begging, spare ribs, and people going spare (ie angry)? Is the middle one related to sparse?

According to an olnine copy of the American Heritage Dictionary, 'Spare Ribs' is a modern form of the older 'ribspare' which in turn derives from Low German 'ribbesper' (literally 'rib-spear'), meaning pickled pork ribs spit-roasted.

I'm not sure about the 'angry' usage (though in my northern English experience, I think it more precisely means 'frantic', either with worry or anger).
There seem to be so many similar terms for anger or madness (going loco/bananas/ape/hatstand, etc) that I suspect the real origin or origins may be hard to find, since the second word in the phrase doesn't necessarily have to have any meaningful connection with anger/madness.

The best (ie only) reference I found for the angry usage was:

http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/9/messages/572.html

but [..in use since before WWII. It derives from the notion of excess.] is hardly a cast-iron explanation.

Wow - a question I could [partially] answer. Must be the first time in a couple of months.

Incidentally, Watching the Snooker final tonight, I was struck by a commentator saying something like "If he'd have hit that ball differently". I was wondering why common usage would sometimes double up 'have'.

It seems to me that in understandable yet technically ungrammatical English it seems to be that usually words are *dropped* from sentences for reasons of speed or economy, to be implicity reinstated by the listener/reader, but the "If I'd have done X" or "If she had've done Y" forms are longer, don't carry any extra meaning, yet do seem to occur quite often.

Is there any historic lingusitic reason fro doubling 'have'.

"If he'd have hit that ball differently"

I'd have thought that "he'd" is an abreviation of "he would"

I mean, I would have thought that "he'd" is and abreviation of "he would"

or is it "he should"? I always have trouble with would and should.

H'mm,
"If I'd have done X" or "If she had've done Y"

Very unpleasant. I am more used to the "If I'd have done" version which I assumed arose from "would have" being a variation of "could have" indicating there was a choice of what to do rather that just a choice of doing or not doing.

I do not like it but there is a perverse logic, unlike the transatlantic "could *OF* " etc.

"could *OF* "

I always thought that was "could've"

and I figure when people write "if she had've" it's some sort of mistaken construction based on "if she'd have":

If she would (or could or should) have > if she'd have > if she had've

but as is so often said around here, that's just me.

The 'If he had have done / If he had've done' construction seems fairly interchangable with 'If he'd have done', so at least much of the time it semms to be a real double-have.

Would/could/should interpretations are certainly *feasible*, but then I don't think I'd hear anyone these days saying 'If he'd have..' whilst meaning 'If he could have...'. 'If he could've' would be much more likely.

The whole could/should/would issue seems to be an odd one anyway, with the meanings of the words varying strongly over time, leading to the modern confusion over the not-so-distant phrase 'She's no better than she should be'.

It strikes me that the examples we're using are all "if" clauses (contrary to fact conditionals), which in most (Indo-European) languages would use a verb in the subjunctive mood. Since the subjunctive is pretty much moribund in Modern English, the subjunctive sense is often represented by the use of would, should,or could as an auxiliary verb. The use of the verb "to have" as an auxiliary is generally confined to preterite senses. I still argue that "if he'd have" is a contraction of "if he would have" and "if he had've is" a product of mistaken deflation of the contraction followed by a re-contraction at a different point.

and 'She's no better than she should be' also has a subjunctive sense communicated by the use of "should" as an auxiliary.

LOL
woulda/coulda/shoulda


Anyway, will no one sip some 'cider' with me then?
I'm still balking at the idea that it's from the Hebrew generic term for 'booze'.

Perhaps someone can answer these questions:
Is 'cider' always specific only to apple based booze?
Are apples native to northern Europe, such that our pagan ancestors might have made 'cider' prior to the Renaissance and all its Mediterranean and Oriental influences?
And why does cheap 'champagne' taste like a bubbly apple cider?


~jwf~

Hey, ~jwf~:

You know, I looked in every dictionary I could find and they all gave me that Hebrew bit about cider. Sorry.

I'll let somebody else answer you're questions. I don't feel like looking things up right now. (but I know the Romans had apples, for what that's worth.)

I'd have to go along with Anhaga on the origins of the word Cider:

Hebrew shekar = strong drink
--> Greek sikera
--> Latin sicera
--> Middle French
--> Middle English sidre
--> Modern English cider

Somewhere along the way it changed from being just a strong drink to being one made from apples.

Americans also use the term cider for apple juice: they distinguish between hard cider (alcoholic) and sweet cider (non-alcoholic).

I'm not going to get involved in the discussion about the orogins of the word, but think you might like to see this article A689060 on scrumpy. I will sup scrumpy with anyone.

These days cider is an apple based alcoholic beverage (unless as Gnomon pointed out you drink hard cider).
You can also get Calvados from Northern France which is apple brandy (distill the cider produced earlier).

>> A689060 <<

Great entry !
It was everything I was looking for, thank you!

I see now that while apples were native and known to the Celts, it was the Romans who brought the 'cider-making skills' and 'better apples' and, no doubt, the Hebrew word.

~jwf~