h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yet more outrageous self-indulgence. Taken the horse to water once too often methinks...

I've no objection to a bit of flaunting, except in this case when I can't join in.

I prefer flouncing myself If I'd explained it, it would have looked less impressive
Still, Gnomon knew what I was on about. Right, Gnomon?

I did indeed know what you were on about. I was amazed that you could come up with such a good explanation of something for a language that you obviously don't speak. I learnt Irish in school and can remember some of it.

I have started learning Polish because we might be going to Poland with the choir next year. That has instrumental and locative cases. In fact, they're the first the course teaches you.

I must admit, the instrumental does seem a good idea, as it has always bothered me that in German you use the nominative with "to be" - in Polish you use the instrumental. As for the locative, I knew that from Russian, but hadn't realised it was different from the dative because as far as I had got in Russian, we hadn't started naming things.

And my husband confirms that these two cases converged to form the ablative in Latin, but that there are a few remnants still in use in one or two words.

Thanks Gnomon

Ah well, I'm a Jack of all trades you see Sorry. I know a little about most European languages, but as Irish is one of my favourites, I know a bit more about it.


I also know that Polish, despite its awesome appearance on paper, is nearly a phonetic language, though after that things gets a bit tricky. Good luck with it, TC!

"these two cases converged to form the ablative in Latin"

Ablative absolutely.

"Ablative absolutely."



how passively paraphrastic!

Forgive me for casting my net backwards, but I've been away.

>> Book locate table up.
>> I'm starting to see what I'm up against...

Having just returned from China (and spent 10 days in a sort of semi-quarantine, as a result), I have to say the thing that struck me was that the language seems remarkably simple in structure. Which is a mercy as the pronunciation is murder.

Japanese, on the other hand, using many of the same characters, is simplicity itself to pronounce but the grammar gets me every time!


>> A similar thing happens in Latin and German, though with more logic. For example, 'in silva' (ablative) means in the wood, while 'in silvam' (accusative) means into the wood.

The following rhyme helps people to remember all the Latin prepositions that take the ablative. The rest (rather more) take the accusative:

A, ab, absque, coram, de,
Palam, cum, and ex, and e,
Sine, tenus, pro and prae,
Add super, subter, sub and in
When state, not motion 'tis they mean.

However, there are two slight complications. Tenus is known to take the genitive in some cases, but rare (and I don't know of any other Latin prepositions that do take the genitive). Also, there are some examples of 'clam' taking the ablative, but some commentators have argued these are actually mistakes.

Incidentally, I think most Latin prepositions started life as adverbs and evolved over time.

I also read something recently about Latin prepositions starting out as adverbs. What was I reading . . . ?

I thnk I'm finally coming to grips with this 'ablutive' case.

wash up
hose down
lather up
rinse off
wipe away
dust around
scrub down
tidy up


~jwf~

After that, sit down and have a cuppa

How many versions are there of the word "chai" and is it called anything else in any other language? (Chai, Tea, Thé, Tee ...) I mean is there another word for "tea" anywhere in the world.

Apart from "infusion" which I will only accept as a pseudo-chemical expression.

Well, there's always Rosy Lee. Both chai and tea come (as you rightly surmise) from China - different "dialects". There's a very interesting map in the museum in Macau showing which countries call it which nowadays (I must make another trip to bone up on it). Char, I think, comes via India as the char wallah was the tea boy and folk etymology has it that that's why ladies who do are called charladies(chars)

should I? Yeah, I better.

From, you guessed it, the Online Etymology Dictionary http://www.etymonline.com/t2etym.htm:


"tea - 1655, earlier chaa (1598, from Port. cha), from Malay teh and directly
from Chinese (Amoy dialect) t'e, in Mandarin ch'a. The distribution of the
different forms of the word reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The
modern Eng. form, along with Fr. the, Sp. te, Ger. Tee, etc., derive via Du.
thee from the Amoy form, reflecting the role of the Dutch as the chief
importers of the leaves (through the Dutch East India Company, from 1610).
The practice of drinking tea was first introduced to England 1644. The Port.
form came via Macao, and Rus. chai, Pers. cha, Gk. tsai, Ar. shay and Turk.
çay all came overland from the Mandarin form. Meaning "afternoon meal at
which tea is served" is from 1738. The tea-rose (1850) has a scent supposed
to resemble tea. "

whereas rose tea tastes like roses

I'm just too honest not to cheat.

So what did the English drink before they drank tea? Beer? Wine? Something I've never heard of with a name like 'frumenty' or 'papple'?

We were all raving alcoholics, downing ale, mead and cider by the gallon, I think!

Something equally exotic although I'm sure you've heard of it Gnomon...

"Feast on wine and fast on water, and your honour shall stand sure"
Beer mostly (called small beer, fortified wines (sack) milk and water and cider in some parts of the country. (pre-pasteurisation it didn't travel very well)Spirits not really until the eighteenth century, but a fair amount of brandy near the coast.