h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Ictoan:
" Along similar lines to the 'Exploring Wagners Ring' book. "
Have you been frequenting a BBCi message board recently?

Erm, no.

Why? What am I supposed to have done?

I wonder if he finds the name offensive ?

OK, I'm totally confused now!

Who finds what name confusing? My name? The thread name?

I must stress it is not my intention to cause offence.

Ictoan, Nikki's comment was nothing to do with you. She was referring to the subject of her own posting: Greg Dykes.

Ahhhhh, thankyou for the clarification Gnomon, much appreciated! Just spent the last week organising and buying my first house so my mind is a little pre-occupied at the moment and I'm not my usual sharp witted self

Sooorreee ....

Often forget no one else has the faintest idea how my thought processes work (often I don't either !)

I've been discussing 'normal' with someone at my place of work recently .... it seems to be a word with several meanings .... and conotations which I find uncomfortable when applied to me (those that know me will be able to confirm that I'm NOT normal .... whatever it is) .... I've come to the conclusion the phase 'not unusal' would be better ....

Discuss.

Just a few off-the-cuff thoughts on your question, Nikki,

French uses the word 'normal' (adj) in a rather different way to English. The phrase, 'C'est normal' really means 'Naturally' or 'Of course'. 'C'est pas normal' gives something more like, 'That's not right' or 'It shouldn't be that way.'

Since the word is quite common in both languages, it is a tricky false friend for language learners on both sides of the channel.

I imagine your problem is with its implied sense in English that 'normal' is positive as compared to being abnormal or 'wierd' and generally 'bad'.

I think that over the past 50 years there has been a real change in this view (in the West, at least) and it has been hammered home time and again in many media that it's 'okay' not to be the same as everyone else.

I realise that this has by no means dispelled the view that anyone straying from the 'norm' is 'erring' and needs correction; nonetheless, surely there is more acceptance today of individual values.

Some would say, of course, that this individualism is a negative factor in maintaining moral values in society.

What is considered normal in California these days, by the way?


Seeya
Spiff

I'm afraid 'not unusual' simply won't do - too many overtones of Tom Jones.

Normal is another one of those perfectly good words which appears to have been corrupted. Its offensiveness should, I think, be guaged in regard to its use. If you look at the output of a computer program and say "that's normal" you're just saying that the observed output is what you would expected, its the usual result.

What annoys me is when the tabloids use "normal" to mean "like us". Its used in an exclusive rather than inclusive manner, where the intention is not so much to define what "normal" is, but rather to define what it isn't. The fact that the perceived norm is usually either a) a pipe dream (such as Merrie England with tea and cricket) or just an undefined something that "they definitely are not" seems completely by the by. The other problem is that the perceived norm used by these sources changes to whatever is opposite to that which they are against!

I suppose the other definition used of normal is 'average' which I suppose is slightly closer to what most people would mean. I guess it's from this meaning that we get the normal=dull. It probably doesn't help, either, that to me the word 'normal' is brown (anyone else find some words have colour? Very odd!), but I guess thats just me!

Maybe this confusion is why the computing world has appropriated the word 'vanilla' to mean 'unadorned, ordinary, standard -dare I say normal?-' instead.

"Maybe this confusion is why the computing world has appropriated the word 'vanilla' to mean 'unadorned, ordinary, standard -dare I say normal?-' instead."

Hmmm. Vanilla does have implications of 'basic, entry-level, bare-bones, lowest-common-denominator', but not necessarily 'default' or 'most common'.

I guess for the *really* geometrically inclined, 'normal' also has a specific meaning rather different to the common one (a vector at right-angles to line or surface).

".......but not necessarily 'default' or 'most common'."

Not to descend into the 'does, does not' debate but I'm afraid in this office full of Geeks and other computer loving low-lifes, it does indeed mean default or most common. Ie the vanilla install of our code is the most common one we do, hence normal. Vanilla spec is a bog standard 'what you get if you don't ask for anything else' spec.

Still, it is a fairly new meaning to the word (compared to others in this thread going back to Latin and so forth) so I guess a general consensus has yet to be reached.

I picked up this on someone's home page and thought of the BE thread:

"My family is big and they are normal which means they go back and forth in various states of crazy and sane and solvent and indebtedness and health and illness and need me and bail me out and keep me busy."

Maria de J G de la T... Electric Monk
_____________________

I thought that was pretty good demonstration of the broad range that 'normal' can represent.

I had never heard the idea that 'vanilla' meant 'unadorned' but I find it makes sense. When you say 'ice cream' it *could* mean all kinds of exotic frozen concoctions; but when it comes down to it, most people's first thought is of bog standard, vanilla ice cream.

I was always a mint choc chip chap, myself!

Seeya
Spiff

Spiff, then you probably haven't seen the new hackers dictionary then?

Lots and lots of interesting stuff at

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/index.html

which is the jargon file resources. I found the bit on differences between US / UK /Russian etc hacking slang quite fascinating, especially the cultural influences on choic of variable names in code.

cut the html/index off to go in at a higher level.

This is, of course, assuming we are still in the trial period for posting links! If not, just search google for 'the jargon file' and it'll be the first one up.

Actually, I was relying on the Jargon File usage myself. (I would have posted earlier, but BT Internet was being a pain)

Modifying the JF analogy, if eating in an Indian (or Chinese) restaurant, if pilau rice (or fried rice) was the most commonly ordered variety, that would be the 'default rice', but 'vanilla rice' would be plain.

I suppose the usage may have been smeared to merge partially with 'default', but vanilla still has a definite meaning outside default. If a software package had options for mimimum, medium, and full install, but *none* were specified as a default option, there would still be a vanilla option (minimum). Where vanilla and default seem to conflict, it'd be a shame if the potential for discrimination was lost.
Still, I suppose even 'hacker' itself was a victim of media misuse.

Originally the phrase was 'plain vanilla' - i.e. the most basic ice cream flavour sans chopped nuts, fudge sauce, chocolate topping and sundry other embellishments.

Ictoan,
Sorry, it's just that there was some innuendo (I can't remember who defined that as "Italian for suppository" but I admire the style) about Wagner's Ring on the Mornington Crescent board amongst a lot of imaginative misuse of English.

I am reminded of the description of 'normal' by the psychiatrist Martin Dysart, from Peter Shaffer's wonderful play, 'Equus':

"The Normal is the good smile in a child's eyes - all right. It is also the dead stare in a million adults. It both sustains and kills- like a God. It is the Ordinary made beautiful; it is also the Average made lethal. The Normal is the indispensable, murderous God of Health, and I am his Priest."

Ooh, I can just hear Richard Burton's voice burning into me.

Potholer, I see where you are coming from now. Afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree, that isn't the understanding I have. Still, I'm not going to get all uppity about the definition of a jargon word!

So, how would those who the aforementioned press might define as 'not normal' prefer to define themselves? Unusual? Abnormal? Different?

Personnally, I prefer to answer such questions with, 'No, I'm an Ictoan (or RL Name!)' I'm an individual, as is everyone else. Therefore being an individual is normal, so we are all normal, even though we are all different.

Oooh my head hurts!

Unique I am. Only one of me.
I'd still go for mycrofts version of vanilla as the plain and unadorned though.
With all the talk of dykes earlier and of course boys sticking their fingers in I was wondering about Dutvh Courage. Where does that phrase come from. I was told on a boat sailing down the Thames the other day that it was due to the Dutch being the only people who would bring supplies to London during the plague (they managed to get themselves a free trade wharf out of it as well it seems). Is this true or is there some other meaning behind the phrase.