h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Zildjian Cymbals - A813557
Author: Nullmuse/U161590 - U161590

This is a fairly authoritative entry on cymbals and the 3 components that determine their sound. It also contains a very brief overview of the Zildjian company.

seems good to me, but one of the scouts might like to comment on how close to advertising this is.

I'm a percussionist, and found this entry quite interesting. I thought the paragraph about Cymbal Characteristics was especially good.

I think the "What Makes Zildjian Cymbals Different?" section does come close to advertising. Confirmation anyone?

You might like to add a link to the entry on Orchestral Percussion, A616277.

Perhaps you would like to say where the company originated (Egypt?).

The vague "late 40s/early 50s" and footnote "don't quote me on this" would need to be fixed to be more accurate.

You mention the process of making cymbals, but perhaps would like to go into more detail on what that process is. Also talking about what kinds of cymbals (ride, crash etc.) they make would be good.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Keep working!

Heya. Thanks for all the feedback! I suppose it DOES come pretty close to advertising, tho' all I have around the house these days is a set of hi-hats, and haven't received any money for it. I have just found they have a distinctive sound and they seem to last longer without "going flat". Heck, if you're going for distinctive China-Boy's, I recommend Wu-Han...different strokes for different folks, I suppose, and the right tool for the right job, eh?

Will add your recommendations -in the next week or so- when time allows.

Also, quickly:
A) The company is originally from Turkey
B) I state the "40's or 50's, don't quote me" because Zildjian doesn't publicize the fact that there was a family falling out and that Sabian and Paiste are "splinter factions" of the original family. Also, I have no documentation to back this up, and it may be upsetting to them! So even if you look on either company's website, you're not going to find documentation on this. I take the info from a percussion seminar I attended given by Bob Ludwig, Jr. back in oh, 1989 or so.

Thanks again for the input!

Very nice entry, and a great idea for the subject matter

As far as the advertising aspect is concerned, it shouldn't be a problem. We had an entry about the Land Rover Discovery accepted for editing last week. The bottom line is that as long as an entry is written as a serious review by an enthusiast, it should be ok. In other words, as long as you're not directly exhorting people to buy the product, you're probably on safe ground.

To get into the entry itself - the biggest problem with it right now is all the first-person references (I, me). The Editors prefer edited entries to be written in third person, so those will have to come out or be rewritten. Although your entry isn't edited until it's recommended by a Scout, edited by a Sub-editor, and polished by the Editors themselves, it should be written according to the Writing-Guidelines so that the Sub-ed has as little to do to the entry as possible.

I presume that the cymbals you're talking about are those for rock drum kits. If so, you need to either make that clear, or talk about other cymbals too, such as those for marching bands, and I think the entry would benefit from a description of any differences between those and the cymbals made for drum kits.

Do Zildjian make anything else?

There are some other things which are pertinent to cymbals, such as what metal they're made from, what sizes you can get, playing techniques and suchlike, but I reckon that sort of thing would be better in a more generic cymbal entry... which you might consider writing at some point in the future

The history section could also be fleshed out a bit more - it kind of jumps from the 17th century to the 1920s. Is there anything you could research to add to it?


Scout

Hi.

Turkey! Whoops! Almost. You mention "Avedis Zildjian" in some places, and "Zildjian" in others. Is Avedis a first name and Zildjian a surname, or is Avedis Zildjian just their full name? Or is Avedis Zildjian different from Zildjian?

>"The important thing to realize is that whacking a cymbal with a stick makes a really cool sound, and depending on how you hit it you can get a soft pinging sound, loud whoosing sound, and many others depending on the shape, thickness, and size of the cymbal."

Perhaps you'd like to mention how the sound a cymbal makes can be changed by where you hit it and all the different types of sticks (hard wood, hard yarn mallets, soft mallets etc.).

>"They quickly rose to prominence among drummers for being durable and pleasing to listen to."

I think you should change that "drummers" to "percussionists".

As it's already been said, you should remove the first person references too, including your "my own experience" paragraph down the bottom. I think that could be rephrased to be in third person and still sound okay though. Possibly.

Also specifying the type of cymbals Zildjian makes would be good. (Gosho said this and I think I mentioned it as well. )

The number one footnote should probably come after the phrase "Zildjian cymbals are made via a "hand hammering" process", not after the end of that paragraph. Makes more sense that way.

Also, I know that most cymbals are machine-made now, but are some special & expensive ones hand-hammered? I remember at a drumming performance I had to sit through a long Sabian advertisment at the beginning, and they said how some of their cymbals are still hand-hammered. Is this the same with Zildjian?

I have to say that the advertising slogans don't signify that much. Obviously, all companies try to pretend they're the best when they're not. A good tone and sound can be obtained by cymbals other than Zildjian, or by mixing Zildjian cymbals with others. Zildjian cymbals also tend to be the most expensive type of cymbals; maybe you'd like to mention that as well.

I've actually heard from several professional percussionists that since the Zildjian/Sabian split, Sabian's cymbals have been slightly better and are improving.

But I don't want to turn this post into a discussion about which type of cymbal is the best. I don't think the entry should be like that either. A lot of it is just down to personal choice.

With the date of the split, if you don't know the date perhaps you could be a bit more vague, such as "in the mid-20th century" or "around 50 years ago" or "quite recently". I guess it does sound a bit weird that way, but it doesn't give false information, it's just vague. I can understand how they wouldn't want to publicise it but I'd heard about it as well, if that makes you feel any better.

Looking forward to seeing the updated version...

(For the record, I like Zildjian a lot. And it's such a cool name!)

Niwt

"Perhaps you'd like to mention how the sound a cymbal makes can be changed by where you hit it and all the different types of sticks (hard wood, hard yarn mallets, soft mallets etc.)"

I think that sort of content would be better in a more general entry about cymbals - this entry should concentrate on the subject matter - the Zildjian company and its products


Scout

I like this- I know nothing really about cymbals, so I found it easy to understand, clear, informative- a few nitpicky things for you:

"But so what makes them anymore remarkable..." Use only one conjunction- but, or so... (haha I just used 3)

"...people in America were taking note of jazz and the percussionist as an art form." A percussionist would not be an art form- he'd be an artist.

"This is not to say that two similar cymbals will not sound the same. Merely that they will each have their own unique, distinctive sound." Unclear- you've just said they may sound the same, yet have distinctive sounds. I know what you mean, but perhaps it would be cleaner to say, "..will not have a very similar sound."

"...check my webpage here." Where? no link...

Finally, maybe a link to cymbal-playing (as a compromise of what Gosho and Niwt suggest)?

Nice work.

Phoenix

I only suggested mentioning "how the sound a cymbal makes can be changed by where you hit it and all the different types of sticks (hard wood, hard yarn mallets, soft mallets etc.)" because Nullmoose already mentions how it can be changed by HOW you hit a cymbal. I just wanted all the other ways to be in there as well, so it didn't seem lopsided.

Although I would agree that it would go better in a general cymbal entry - the guide needs a cymbal entry! (Then this can link to it.) Nullmoose - would you be interested in writing one - or should I do it?

Niwt

Sorry - Nullmuse - couldn't remember your name so made a wild guess.

Niwt

LOL! I get that (Nullmoose) a lot. I guess it's better than "Dullmuse".

I didn't realize anybody would care this much about the entry. You all have made valid points and I want to adapt the entry to make everyone happy.

**I have to attend training and so will be away for a few days; sometime before this coming Friday (1August2003) I'll print out a hard copy of all your notes and amend the entry as recommended. And yes, there was some bad grammar, thanks for pointing it out! (It ALL helps!)**

As for concert cymbals or marching cymbals, there are very few differences ('ceptin' for the annoying oft-unsafe straps, occasional pinch marks on the chest and some techniques for field-playing. While I do know a bit about this, somebody else is doubtlessly more qualified to write an entry about how to march a cymbal, and the techniques involved in playing them.)

I'll have to consult my notes on exactly what their composition is--I believe it's a copper and bronze alloy. (Again, not sure.)

Avedis Zildjian is the name of the founder of the company, and like most families it's been carried on in the family for generations as a sign of respect. Also, the company does make other tuned percussion, including some Gongs, but it's beyond the scope of the entry. Again, when time allows I will "target" the topic a bit better.

Thanks again for all the feedback! Keep up the good work

Looking forward to seeing the updated entry!

Well keep looking forward to it.

Feel free to edit this entry in any way you folks see fit. I stated a few weeks ago that I would update it ASAP. The good news is I've been promoted @ work; the bad news is I've been promoted @ work.

The simple fact is that this is the first time I've been able to come back! much less find the time to update it! The combination of long hours and what I suspect to be carpal tunnel problems has taken it's toll.

Hopefully a really nice editor will take the bit and edit it; otherwise an update will remain "on hold" until time permits.

Sorry guys, again thanks for all your feedback!
Nullmuse

to hear that. Does it mean you won't finish this entry?

Maybe you'd like to remove this from Peer Review in the mean time, by clicking on the "remove" link next to the link to this entry on the PeerReview page.

I could finish it off for you and it would hopefully be edited, if you want.

Niwt/Elephants

Is anybody there?

I think we can take it that Nullmuse has unfortunately had to abandon this entry, so... a move to the Flea Market?


Scout

Sounds good but I can't second it.

If it gets to the Flea Market can I pick it up from there, or do I have to wait until Nullmuse officially "leaves the building"?

Do you wanna seconder? You've just got one

Lets move this to the Flea Market and move it on from there and into the Guide