h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

how could "Yashua Messiah" have said anything about Wicca? He never saw any of it...

I claim a somewhat limp, personal form of Christianity.

One of the most entertaining things in the Christian religion to me has been their equating Wiccan with Satan worship.......that wouldn't be near as entertaining if Wiccan believed in Satan!!!LOL

Seems it is very dificult to get Christians to believe that they and those of the Jewish faith are the only ones in the world who believe in Satan!

Yes..... I know.... Satanists do, but you have to be Christian before you can be Satanist!!!!! Where else could you learn who Satan is!!!

NM

Actually, if you can beleieve the historical portrayal of them, some of the Puritan groups thought everything they didn't like was the work of Satan.

And BTW some Jews are rather shaky on whether they believe in Satan. He is very specifically mentioned in Job, so I guess they ought to, but when I asked some (Jews, I mean), I got very mixed responses.

Satan is a part of the heritage of the dualistic religions that were found in the Middle East. By dualism, I mean systems that had an incarnation of Evil and an incarnation of Good battling on earth. Gnosticism was one such... according to them, God created the earth as a boundary to contain evil. Evil then invaded, and that is the reason for every Bad Thing. Mazdaism is another such, which comes to us from Persia... Ahura Mazda battles the evil Ahriman for supremacy on earth and the heavens.

The concept of Satan really didn't come about until Paul came about. In his efforts to make his new religion palatable to every nation, he stole heavily from every religion. The concept of dualism had many adherents, so by incorporating it, he won over those people.

When you read the Bible, you find very sketchy mentions of Satan. The fact that he is known by so many names in the Bible is suspicious... if the fallen angel Lucifer and the tempter Beelzebub are two different characters, then the whole thing falls apart. Incidentally, the name Beelzebub has its roots in the Assyrian god Baal, and it is more likely to be an incarnation of that god than any fallen angel. But mostly, the Bible is silent on Satan until Paul's letters, you have the mention in Job and the temptation of Jesus before that, and that is all.

The idea that Satan did not come about in the Bible before Paul is ludicrous. You mentioned yourself the major reference in Job. How then is Paul making Satan up. In addition, you missed two referneces. In Chronicles 1:21 there is a reference describing how Satan encouraged King David to start a census against the counsel of Joab which led to some incidental Godly wrath and the eventual repentance of David. Also in Zechariah 3 he features rather prominently in a rather vivid scene which makes the identity of Satan quite obvious (an angel at the right hand of God, resisting Joshua).

BTW Beelzebub was the name of the Philistine God of flies

It doesn't really matter where Satan came from. The important part, for "believers" and "non-believers" is to keep his role proper!

Wiccan does not have a Satan.......If memory serves me correctly, wiccan pre-dates Christianity by quite a few years....

Satan was introduced into the pagan beliefs by the Christian church in an effort to force Catholicism onto the Celts of Western Europe.

"Force" may not be the correct word. More like "blend" I would say.

Sorry.....I have a personal problem with this as of late. It seems a local wiccan coven was flushed from their site by the local Southern Baptists who claimed they were "Satanic".

Of course this is the same Southern Baptist bunch who have been standing on the corner here in Gardendale giving out flyers on the fact that Mormons are a cult, and are not Christian(Proper name.....The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....need more "Christ" in it!?).(they open their new temple here monday)....(actually, I should say we.....though I'm not practicing by any streach of the imagination!)

I hate to say I was raised Southern Baptist. I can't believe I was raised by such a narrow minded bunch of bigots!

NM

I do believe that by the technical definition, Mormonism is a cult.

As for the Wiccans, I suppose the reaction of the Church is understandable (though not justifiable). Wiccans and other pagan groups have been associated with Satan for centuries. Not to say that they associate themselves with Satan, but that the Church has. I'm afraid prejudice that ingrained is very hard to break. I'm sure you could find many people outside the Church who might feel a bit alarmed to know that "witches" were meeting nearby.

So are Southern Baptists, Lutherans, Muslums, Catholics....even Jews, but most don't consider them such. The average person on the street doesn't know the true definition, and has no desire to learn it!

It is not the technical definition of a cult which is a problem....it's the connotation inferred by the words' everyday usage.

As far as folks outside the Christian church being bothered by practicing witches, how would they have any opinion, one way or the other, if the church had not been there to guide their opinion?

One does not have to belong to a certain organization to be affected by its' dogma!

NM

It is YAHshua Messiah not, "YAHWEH Messiah". YAHWEH ALMIGHTY is the Father and YAHshua Messiah
is His Son. Messiah means, "Anointed". YAHshua is YAHWEH's Anointed One.

Many "christians" are also "rather shaky on whether they believe in Satan and he is also mentioned in their literatures and when you ask them you also get very mixed responses.

Are you saying there was no "wisdom" or "those who proclaimed to be wise" when YAHhua was here? That is what the word wicca means.

Methinks you are mislead, ddombrow. 1Chronicles 1:21 reads, in its entirety, "Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah." In 2Chronicles, there is no 1:21. Chapter 1 has only 18 verses. Not much mention of Satan there.

In Job, Satan is represented as one of God's sons. Sounds rather like the polytheistic representations of Zeus, doesn't it? Satan is not represented as being evil per se, but he is having a philosophical discussion about the nature of man with his father. Job becomes the experimental animal in their disagreement, and Satan does nothing to Job that God does not permit. In Job's own words: "We accept good things from God; and should we not accept evil?" (2:10) God is the source of evil... he says it quite plainly.

In Zechariah 3, Satan and an angel have a brief argument. Nothing of use here, really. All this teaches us is that Satan didn't particularly care for Joshua.

Now, from these paltry descriptions, how do you arrive at
1) The war up in heaven.
2) The casting of Satan into the pit.
3) The war on earth between God and Satan.
4) Eternal damnation for sin.

There is no basis for any of this in the OT or the Gospels. Paul introduces us to these concepts... the Spouter of Lies creates the Father of Lies. Ironic, isn't it? The fact that, in Job, Satan has been "roaming the earth and patrolling it" directly contradicts tradition about him. That would be hard to do in hell... or does God grant furloughs?

The "traditions OF MEN" contradict the Word of YAHWEH. You are simply intertwining words of mere men (fables) with the Word of YAHWEH which results in confusion. "Satan is the author of confusion". There are a number of different words in the so called, "Bible" that have been translated as "hell". Hell is NOT a place where Satan lives and roams or a prison. The Valley of Hinnom on the outskirts of Jerusalem is one place that Yahshua had reffered to in a parable that has been traslated as "hell" in most "Bibles" for example. The "lake of fire" is another example of how some believe to be reffering to hell. "The lake of fire" simply symbolizes distruction. In most cases the Hebrew word "sheol" and the Greek word "hades" in Truth is simply reffering to the common grave.

First....Wiccan is ......shall I say, a Celtic belief, therefore the word wicca cannot be translated out of or into a middle eastern language of any era!(unless it is a dirivitive which was polluteted by the latin equivalants.....(a long discussion to be avoided by me!!!)...(also, please excuse my spelling!!)

A definition of hell is a very popular thing. Everyone seems to have an opinion....no one seems to have a clue to what the reality is! There are so many scriptural references which state different things, I get really tired of trying to figure it out!

I've got an idea....does anyone have a book of scripture....any religion, which actually maintains a singular discription of hell?

Produce that book.....show it to me! Show me that your religion is not just as ambiguous as everyone elses!

The more I see, the less I believe! Religion seems more and more a contrivance of zealots on a mission to maintain their power over the masses!

It has had it's place in our history...it has served its' purpose.....let it go!

NM

Hmm. Interesting. I have also noticed the many names, and in order to explain it to myself, I equated them all (Satan, Beazebulb(sp) etc.) with the original serpent from Genesis. I mean, they're all just re-representations of the same thing (In my opinion) : they are the incarnation of man's sinful nature. Whether there is really a being or not is irrelevent(sp), until you get into spiritual warfare and all that.

The Scriptural references that you are speaking of are translations and are erronously mistranslated or purposefully translated to fit bias beliefs. If you get tired of figuring out the word, 'hell' you will have a great big problem with the MANY other errors in bible translations. There are many scholarly studies available where they have already figured it out for you. One great schoarly source to better understand the Word of YAHWEH is to "go to the House of Yahweh". There are many free booklets on various sujects, a subsciption to a periodical magazine called, "The Prophetic Word" and a monthly newsletter. They have a web site at: http://www.yahweh.com/ . They also have the most accurate translation of the Word of Yahweh available today and this translation "maintains a singular discription of hell."

For the record, the Orthodox church has believed in salvation through faith all along... far before the 1500's. Since the beginning of Christianity.