h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

No, you're perfectly correct, that is right attitude. James goes so far as to say if you do not see any "works" in the life of the Christian, then that person is not a Christian at all.

Can you lose salvation through your works? Can you sin yourself out of heaven? Where does forgiveness fit in?

If you have a statement - paraphrased from above - that a Christian without the good works is not a Christian where does this become questionable.

My concern about these discussions is that we may be looking for the definition of a Christian which includes "me."

Sticking with the statement - which I have a lot of time for - is someone a recognisable Christian if they commit one good act in their lifetime? One good act a year? Once a day? Once an hour?

What about bad acts? Do we become "less saved" if we sin?

It seems as if, as with all Christian symbols, the fish was appropriated from pagan sources: http://www.atheists.org/church/fish.html

Oh good, finally an unbiased source to obtain all my historical information from.

So hard to tell in a text forum... was that sarcasm?

If, as I'm inclined to believe the fish represents "alpha" I should go to the pet hate forum and put down that I wince when I see a chrome fish stuck on the back of the car facing the wrong way. I know, it's my problem and I shouldn't worry about it but...
oops you can only get an unchristian fish on h2g2

HaHa

All symbols?
I belive that the most prominent symbol, the cross, came not from Pagan religion, but from a tool rather like the gallows.
The cross, in the time of the crucifixion, was a symbol of death, rather like the hangman's noose today. It was also a symbol of humility, which the Scripture encourages (Peter 5:5, Proverbs 22:4 and practically a million other places)

There's actually no such thing as "The Pagan Religion." All religions who did not worship God were labelled "pagan," so pagans could be Celtic Druids, Hermetic magi, Egyptian priests, or whatever. The followers of Wicca have applied the name "pagan" to themselves, but they wouldn't necessarily be the only ones.

As for the cross, a similar symbol precedes it, the ankh. It's an Egyptian symbol, and consists of the same cross, with an eyelet at the top, looking like the eye of a needle. I think the eyelet is supposed to symbolize the All-Seeing Eye of Horus, but I may be mistaken. Anyway, the cross is simply the ankh with the eyelet flattened out.

It may look similar to the ankh, but that doesn't mean it was derived from it. The romans crucified a lot of people, and the cross was the practical way to do it. Only after Christ's death(and ressurection) did it have any particular meaning as a Christian symbol.

I always think that a religion (which I would claim to be a member of!), based on the resurrection, chooses a strange symbol when it chooses the method of execution.

What if Jesus had been flogged to death - the 39 lashes was the greatest non-death sentence punishment available as 40 lashes meant don't count, just keep on until they die.
What if he had been stoned? (No hippie jokes please)

If Martin Luther King were to be followed in the same way would people wear a little gun around their necks?

Not so strange, if you consider it not as a general symbol, but as a reminder of what was done for us.

But it has also led to a lot of persecution throughout the ages. Many Jewish people have faced confrontation in the streets with fascist shouting, "You Crucified Jesus!"

I love the idea of the fish/alpha or whatever and I think the dove for the Holy Spirit is really great, but having a gallows or electric chair as the symbol for your faith would be seen as really strange, wouldn't it?

No....only fairly strange!

Seriously.....I agree the cross is an inappropriate symbol. I prefer the lamb. It more accurately reflects Christs' role in Christianity.

If one *must* use some symbol of his death and resurection, I'd say the stone at the tomb would be more fitting. Not an icon of his execution, but one which represents his victory over death.

NM

I've read lots of religious criticisms, and since the Bible has so many contradictions and untruths, it leaves a lot of room for alternate theories. One of the theories I've encountered is that Jesus was never crucified at all. I'm not trying to open a debate on this point, but one of their arguments is what I wanted to bring up. It seems that there is no evidence in history of Christianity using the cross symbol until the 4th century AD. Up to that point, they used only the fish symbol. Then there's another argument based on a biblical or historical reference (can't recall the precise location) that mentions that Jesus was crucified not on a cross, but on a tree. Anyway, my point is that there is reason to believe that the cross may simply be an adaptation to the ankh, and that the Easter story was then adapted to compensate.

sorry, typo.
read: "Pagan religions"

I don't know when tey started using the symbol, but i doubt it was an intentional adaptation of the ankh. The Egyptians were not liked by the Jews of the time of the crucifixion (some kind of slavery thing...) or any time thereafter, for that matter. I think that any resemblance to the ankh is coincidental. After all, it's a pretty simple shape, just two lines...

I agree, but people always seem to rally behind odd symbols. The USA's Republicans rally behind an elephant (the Rep. party was criticized because of the way they "ran rampant" and were compared to elephants stampeding. The dropped the stampeding part and rallied behind the elephant).
Also, the USA's Democrats rally behind an ass.
Symbols don't always make sense.

This issue has nothing to do with Jews, however, but with Christians. The cross didn't appear until the 4th century, and by then Paul's proselytizing had made Christianity an international faith, with worshippers in Rome, Gaul, and Egypt. Especially Egypt. Two of the earliest, most influential church fathers spent most of their careers working out of there; Clement of Alexandria (pretty obvious, there) and Augustine. Alexandria housed possibly the most prestigious early Christian church, and it's not a far stretch to imagine them taking the pagan ankh and adapting it to their own faith, just as Celtic elements were adapted to the Christmas celebrations (ex. holly, decorated trees, mistletoe, red and green colors).

In all religions, mythology reins supream! Those who formed the early Christian church were just as we are now. "What will make the publc accept it". Here we are 2000 years later trying to figure out what a few "true believers" did way back when. We'll never know where they got their symbols, or, for that matter whether or not what they said is really what happened.

All religions are matters of faith. If you believe thats' how it is,.....that's how it is. If you don't...it's your business!

Humanity has gone through several "official" religions(of which, Christianity is only one). They change from time to time. The question is quickly becoming "not what is true in past religions.....but what will the next one be"!

NM