h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Calling atheists and materialists - if the mind is just matter, then what's wrong with mind altering drugs?

There's the idea that it's good to "know who the real me" is or to "get through this on my own" and likewise that it's bad to take drugs that change your personality in some way.

But why?

If there's no god-given spiritual element to who and what we are, if we are just a bunch of electro-chemical reactions giving the (compelling) illusion of consciousness, then why not use mind-altering chemicals if they make things better in some way?

Ben

I often have a glass of red wine.

But I think most mind-altering drugs are mind-damaging drugs. I'm quite proud of my brain and what it can do. I don't want to damage it.

That's a good reason.

Mind you, caffeine is a mind-altering drug; it speeds it up. I'm addicted to the stuff.

Nothing, go for it, if that's what you want to do.

Just don't be a dick about it.

I think some people have a problem with it because if it does screw someone up often other people are affected by it too.

As ever my view is "If it's not hurting anyone else then go for it." Though I do feel as if that's an idealistic view and not sure how applicable that is all the time.

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Gnomon. My brain doing something I have no control of is something really likely to freak me out.

It only happened once, due to injudicious application of an alcoholic beverage I wasn't used to (I really don't want to name which one, because it's quite embarrassing), and it really REALLY freaked me out. The idea of taking drugs designed to take me to that 'other plain' is something I just can't comprehend.

B

It all depends on what they alter your mind into: if things like anti-depressants make you a happier, more able person then great. If they make you into a w then it's probably not as great.

No, I'd rather be a git. A self-conscious git at least.

B

I had some hash cakes once, as I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. I giggled endlessly then either passed out or fell asleep. I couldn't see what the point of that was, and didn't bother again. I maybe had too many as I 'didn't feel any different' so kept eating.

<<then why not use mind-altering chemicals if they make things better in some way?<<

ahem.... have you heard about Dual Pathology? People with brain damage who are addicted to drugs. Most of them developed the brain damage taking drugs.

Specialists say that taking drugs it´s like playing to the russian roulette ( not sure if you say that in English, it´s to point to your head with a pistol which contains only one bullet instead of six)

Maybe you can escape once, but it may also trigger a mental disease that otherwise, could have be dormant in your brain for all your life. It seems that more than the drug itself the problem is mainly in how the brain is, our genetic configuration (?)

BUT: If the person is a teenager the damage is going to happen anyway, since their brains are developing and to take any substance as alcohol, pot, cocaine, pills, etc. will affect the neurons directly and obviously their perfomance. They may not develop a serious mental pathology, but damage is there.

::
For me it´s wine and beer, taken in a context of joy, with measure and

The history of mood and mind altering substances
is traced throughout most human cultures. In general
they are controlled by a central witch doctor figure
who self-administers as situations arise. Some are
also used in strict ritual ceremonies that may include
a wider part of the population.

It has been suggested that caffeine in tea and coffee
had a widespread and distinctive effect on European
cultures beginning in the 17th century that may have
led to some aggressive and 'progressive' changes in
the base personality structure that then created the
Industrial Revolution, Colonialism and Capitalism.

It was the hope of the Hippy generation that wide scale
exposure to cannabis and LSD would cause positive change
toward Peace and Harmony in Western culture. But the
greed and selfishness of Capitalist societies only led
to profit motivated criminal activity and the marketing
of assorted poisons.

That said, nature's pharmacopia is still available to those
who wish to experience a wider consciousness. This does
not in my opinion include any of the opiates.

And there is no question that moddern medicine has created
what appear to be very good and beneficial compounds for
the relief of symptoms in a variety of physical, mental
and emotional conditions.


~jwf~

Ben, what do you mean by mind altering drug?

That's a broad spectrum from coffee and sugar to methamphetamine and LSD, with lots in between. Not to mention mushrooms, datura, etc which are plants rather than drugs in the medical sense.

It also depends on what you mean by 'mind'

I'd like to see some evidence that all mind altering drugs cause brain damage as some people seem to be saying. And what constitutes brain damage? How do we know what a 'normal' brain is anyway? I think if we look at that we will find that neurology has advanced massively in recent decades *and* we still don't know a huge amount about the brain (or the mind). It's very complex - the idea that 'drugs are bad for the brain' is misleading.

All those questions are medical ones. People's wishes to abstain from certain substances is entirely a personal decision I don't see how that can be extrapolated to all humans though.


As ~jwf~ alludes to, much of the mind altering drug experience is related to how one prepares and what one believes (this is true of prescribed medicines too btw). I generally think teens taking drugs is risky, but much of the problem is related to how they're basically left to figure all that out amongst themselves at a point in their lives when they don't have particularly good risk management skills.

To me it's probably the other way around. If I have a soul, why worry about damaging my brain? However as I think my brain is what makes me me, I don't want to do anything that is likely to damage my "three pound universe".

Well said kea and thanks for fleshing out
a few of my points. I am a cannabis devotee
and I am dismayed by the death rates today
of kids taking what they are told is Ecstacy.

The early LSD available in the 1960s was largely
manufactured and distributed by genuine chemists
and psychedelic researchers. It was easy to get
and usually only harmful in resulting behaviour
where-as today's Ex is made by amateurs and is
often just a bad emphetamine cut with bad coke,
baking powder, soda or rat poison.

The other activity that scares and saddens me is
the 'Smartie Party' where all the kids bring some
of whatever they find in their parents medicine
cabinets and toss them into a bowl. Everyone then
takes a handful not knowing what they are taking
or how much - the results are too often fatal and
too seldom pleasant.


~jwf~

I lost a nice young cousin to suicide, thanks to bad trips on LSD. His death seemed so unnecessary!

I read somewhere that nicotine rewires the brain if people under the age of 19 take up smoking. There's less of an effect for people who start smoking later, and they apparently have an easier time quitting. Nevertheless, the human liver produces an enzyme whose only apparent purpose is to break down nicotine. Were we originally designed for the possibility that, hundreds of thousands of years later, we might become exposed to nicotine? It's something to think about.

I'm not sure where the line should be drawn in the discussion of mind-altering substances. Caffeine speeds up the brain and slightly elevates the mood, but is the brain doing anything different than it would otherwise have done? With alcohol, there's more of a sedative effect. Some people who are shy and inhibited when sober may come out of their shells after a few drinks. Too many drinks, though, and the sedative properties become too strong, on average. Comedian/actor Jacky Gleason was known for drinking a lot, but those who knew him report that he was *never* too drunk to sit up straight and *appear* sober if someone important came into the room. Senator Edward Kennedy was known to be fairly heavy drinker, and this was an issue when he drove. In terms of his ability to work hard and to good effect, though, his drinking does not seem to have had any noticeable harm.

So, different people seem to react differently to the same substances. My biggest concern is that people not get killed on the highway by drunk or stoned drivers. I've sat on juries in drunk driving cases. It was enough to turn me away from alcohol altogether, though I had other reasons as well.

Asfor my cousin, I don't know if anything could have been done.

>> Senator Edward Kennedy was known to be fairly heavy drinker, and this was an issue when he drove.

Indeed, like he said,"and another one for the road; we'll cross that bridge when we come to it"

Sorry about that. It was in poor taste. So I had to.

Anyhoo - we seem to have two main reasons for not taking mind altering drugs:

They make you paranoid / unhappy / suicidal

You aren't in control when you take them

Both entirely coherent reasons.

What about prescription drugs? When my Pa was dying of cancer he was reluctant to take morphine on the grounds that it's addictive. None of us had the cojones to point out that he'd be dead before the addiction harmed him.

If you are dealing with depression or some other mind-ing condition, is it helpful to think in terms of "the real me"?

Is that a valid concept at all, when you can be changed by everything from cheesecake and comedy shows right through to lobotomies and stroke?

The real me, eh.
Well that is always a work-in-progress.
Perhaps best described by Shakespeare in his seven ages
of man soliloquy. Life is change, we are in a constant
stream of change as we age.

I think this 'real me' concept is the result of getting
into a desperate state of addiction or emotional upheaval
and longing for a former, calmer state of mind.

But you can't ever go back. One can only adjust and adapt
to new experiences, new perceptions. Traumatic incidents
will eventually fade once a new state of normalcy can be
established but the clock cannot be turned back, just muffled
and suppressed along with memories.


~jwf~

If I may ask . . .


why call atheists? Are dualist atheists inconceivable?


and,


What's a drug, mind altering or otherwise?


A little before meal time, my daughter's mind becomes a raging, uncontrollable bag of grump. One bite of a meal or a bit of junk food or something and her mind becomes a laughing, joking bag of goofy. The change is as radical as any drug I've ever witnessed, and I've witnessed quite a few.

I'm quite happy with the altering of that particular mind in that particular direction.

Is food a drug? What about mind-altering meditation? Is the question really about mind-altering? or is it more specifically about drugs that are in some circles considered immoral and/or unethical and/or illegal?

Our minds are altering to some degree constantly throughout our daily lives. If we think something is wrong with such altering, life is done.