h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have to say your patience and continued perseverance in this matter are impressive to me.

Like you I would probably have kicked up a fuss over the fine, or just paid it depending on what chance I felt I had of winning then "learned my lesson" and made sure I always carried my ticket out of the station.

Beyond that I would have looked to find small, legal ways to subvert the system and inconvenience them but nothing that took too much effort.

Is the idea is to make you pay, whether you are in the right or in the wrong, to avoid prosecution and the potential for a criminal record?
Clamp down on fare dodgers, (=thieves), good move. Clive's case looks more like extortion.
When travelling by train always remember to take a valid ticket and a good lawyer.

I think it's good that you've got photos.
(The girl in this photo seems to be smiling at you.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2639/4152764680_1bb4848b50_o.jpg
Perhaps she thinks you're photographing her 'cos you fancy her.)

Freejames,

I think the idea is to make everyone pay for their ticket. Now I fully support that. Where I depart from this, however is that I did pay for a ticket and was still interviewed under caution and threatened with prosecution. This happened because of an error on my part, I fully accept that, but nonetheless.

Now as it happens I think I can prove my innocence by the fact that I paid for my ticket by bank card. If I had not, I would lack any evidence of my innocence and in this case of essentially mistaken identity (happening to be accused of a crime for being in the vicinity and failing to be distinguished from the guilty parties) I could face a criminal record for something I did not do.

That strikes me as fundamentally unjust.

The girl in this photo seems to be smiling at you. Perhaps she thinks you're photographing her 'cos you fancy her.

Well wouldn't that be nice? How disappointed would they be to learn that the object of my attention that morning was the stairs-well instead? Probably best something not confessed. Ever.

(Remember that day we first met, love?....)

<>

Clive - I did not express myself clearly enough. I totally agree with you.
I am questioning the motives of the train companies. If you can still get a criminal record for fare evasion most people will pay and keep quiet, even if innocent, to avoid the slightest risk to their reputation/career. Penalties should only be issued when all aspects of the law are respected otherwise it is no better than extortion.

No problem.

So I took the opportunity this evening to quiz a guard about the changes. He was about as confused as anyone I've yet encountered. He was under the impression that the role out of this grand scheme may have been delayed, so was hedging over the date. He also said that you WILL still be able to buy tickets on board trains.

Got that so far? The leaflet says no you won't, the guard says yes you will as did the two in the station manger's office.

Now here comes the proverbial cow-pat in the green meadows of reality.

He said the guards and the RPOs (Revenue Protection Officers) work independently. This we had already figured out, however, then he said: "We'll start at one end, they'll start at the other. If you meet a guard, they'll charge you a full standard fare ("the same as now?" I asked, he said "yes.") but they'll also give you a warning. (That's new).

However, he said, if an RPO finds you, it's a £20 on the spot fine AND double the single fare to the next station (not either/ or as the poster implies)


Now tell me if I've misunderstood this - but seems to me to mean variable punishment for the same quote-unquote crime: boarding a train without a ticket. The amount you pay will depend on where you happen to be sitting and upon who finds you first.

Now I was perturbed before by the inability to distinguish the innocent from the guilty: but variable punishment based on the happenstance of encounter - that can't possibly be just.

Imagine if the police worked like that. You get pulled over for a minor infraction of the highway code, if it's a constable it's a fixed penalty notice, if it's a sergeant you happen to encounter, it's a trip to the magistrates and several penalty points FOR THE EXACT SAME OFFENCE.

I'm starting to the think retaining the services of a solicitor might not be such a bad idea after all....


*on the basis that anywhere with the phrases "democratic" or 'free' inserted into the title, isn't.

..You know, this is the kind of thing the papers love... a link to this thread with a succinct summary might get their attention

I'd practice posing with that letter if I were you

I was thinking much the same.

Thanks for that Clive.

I actually think this is bordering on entrapment and whatever else you want to call it.

If one of the orificers know there is a ticket chap on the tran but does not give people the chance to buy a ticket before they check people then they are knowingly prosecuting innocent people who would buy a ticket if the guard got to them first.

As usual, it's a money making scam.

This is the problem, though, if there is a guard on the train and the enforcement officers know then there is no reason for them to be on board as the gaurd will get people to buy a ticket as it is allowable to buy tickets on a train.

If there is no guard on a train but you want to buy a ticket and the officers get you...what can you do? Sue the train company for not providing the service that they should which led you to being fined through no fault of your own?

Was discussing this all with my father last night who takes radically opposing view to my own, sees nothing wrong in anything I've been describing.

"Root causes analysis", he said. "Doesn't matter if it's unfair. Don't board a train without a ticket."

I suppose he has a point, if this pernicious device forces people to buy tickets well then good.

My worry is that it's a blunt instrument to achieve that aim, risks ensnaring the innocent and will operate like entrapment.

My lessons were cancelled (again) this morning so made a round trip to Sheffield for no reason, but on the train the announcer was pleading with people to buy their tickets as this new system is (see my previous post) being rolled out at the start of next week.

I predict fireworks.

I could probably get a Guide Entry out of this.

Just get a newspaper entry instead

Yes, media would be better for this...maybe send it to Watchdog etc...it's a mess and set up to catch people out.

Oh I see, you were serious!

The problem is, it's a *great* defence for the system if you can ensure that everyone has a chance to get a ticket but on local trains from local platforms, it's not always an option. The on-board conductor should come through and offer tickets. Recently I was in Cardiff and went from a small unmanned station to Cardiff Central, no conductor came down the train,as far as I could tell only the driver was in attendance. It was a two-stop journey and no officials were to be seen outside of the cockpit of the train.

Until you can ensure that everyone has *access* to a ticket, you cannot enforce everybody *having to have* a ticket. Either the conductor has to be there after every stop checking tickets and taking money or they have to be lenient and fair at the stations with ticket checks.

Absolutely.

with Robyn