h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

One point I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet is the place the class system has in our system of government.

How can we even pretend to be a classless society while we remain a constitutional monarchy? We are not citizens, remember, we are subjects of Her Majesty. The Crown prosecutes wrongdoers, Her Majesty's Customs and Excise enforces the taxes that pay for the upkeep of the Royal Family. We have a Royal Air Force and a Royal Navy, although strangely we seem simply to have an Army.

Added to that there remain, I think, some hereditary peers in our unelected second chamber of government, people who, to some extent or another, rule over us not by qualification, wisdom, charisma or popularity but simply by virtue of who their daddy was.

Yes, the idea there are three classes - working, middle and upper - is a simplification, but it's one that works for the most part. You might just as well complain that "rock music" is no good as a definition because Pink Floyd and Metallica are different. The point is that "rock music" is a loose definition intended to differentiate many diverse but similar types of music from something else qualitatively different, like, say, pop. And of course you will always be able to find music that blurs the boundaries. That does not mean the classification is worthless, merely that in music, and in the class system, the universe demonstrates again and again that while humans seem to like to compartmentalise things into rigidly defined categories, it prefers things in continua.

The class system is a continuum - working class at one end, upper class at the other, middle class somewhere in between. The fact that many at the very bottom are not actually working does not stop them being working class - the defining characteristic of working classness is not employment status but rather qualification and employment possibilities.

H.

Oh come on, the royal family is a zoo and the house of lords is a joke.

I don't think the Briish pretend to have a classless society and I don't think we want a classless society. We may aspire to more equality of opportunity in all sorts of areas such as education, mobility and health care but is that really compromised by one's class, how ever you define it. The peer and the destitute would both ride in the same ambulance to the nearest hospital if they were knocked down.

The Royal Family is another of those quirks that define the British. Like it or loath it we will never loose it. Witness how popular the Queen is and the Qheen Mum and Diana were. Witness the crowds that turn out for every pomp and ceremony occasion from Trooping the Colour to a Royal announcement at the gates of Buckingham Palace. I'd also hazard a guess that the majority of the crowds are made up what you define as Working Class.

God save the Queen...

How can we have a 'classless society' when we had a Prime Minister (Thatcher) - I refuse to give her a title, who was so utterly against the 'working class' and said quite openly that we "would return to Old Fashioned values". Closely followed by a 2% cut in Income Tax which benefits everybody and a 20% cut in the highest rate which selectively benefits the better off.

The Government's own statistics show that the income gap between the lowest paid and the highest paid has never been so great IN THE HISTORY OF BRITAIN. In 2002 average earnings below £20,000 P.A. rose by 8.9%
whereas incomes in the plus £50,000 P.A. rose by 57%.

The perpetuation of the Royal System is an abomination in every sense of the word (including Biblical). They hold their position because in the days when Murder, Rape and Pillage were the order of the day, their Ancestors were particularly good at all aspects of it.

There will always be a class system in this Country simply because the 'system' is controlled by those at the top of the tree and they will yeild nothing to people they regard as inferior.

Certainly we have a better standard of living that our parents and grandparents but this has been achieved not given and in spite of class distinction not due to generousity.

Compared to the rest of Europe we have a poor standard of living, we work the longest hours for the least pay, we have the poorest health service and transport system. But also the highest paid and generally regarded as the most incompetant Managers - what was the nationality of the Manager brought in to try and save 'The Dome' for instance.

We are a laughing stock in Europe for tolerating the crap our Government heaps upon us.

It's often said "Ah yes but they pay higher taxes" - Really? - certain sections do, in France the top rate of income tax is 49% compared to 40% in the U.K. the tax threshhold for a Man/Woman/2 children (one parent working) is a little over £4,000. French Income tax is arranged in units - man/woman 1 unit each, children .5 unit each which gives the same family a tax threshhold of £9,000 and then 10% all the way to £20,000.

They pay this quite happily because it all goes to the infrastructure of the country and not into private pockets.

Home ownership ? what happens if you find oil beneath you property, riches galore??. You will probably find that mineral rights are owned by the Duke of Westminster, even if you live in Yorkshire. This is due to some ancient charter as a reward for a 'good deed' (probably the slaughter of a few troublesome Serfs).

We don't even have personnel managers any more, we have Human Resource Managers, the most disgusting title ever created.

Classless Society - YOU MUST BE JOKING.

Quack.

I am somewhat puzzled that this disparity in incomes has come about under the auspices of the political party that traditionaly represents, what is being defined in this thread as, the Working Class and on the watch of a proudly redistributive Chancellor......

**ignores the rep. from Socialist Worker**


'How can we even pretend to be a classless society while we remain a constitutional monarchy? We are not citizens, remember, we are subjects of Her Majesty.'

Sloppy thinking youth. We are both.

http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/british_nationality/advice_about_nationality/bn1_-_british_citizenship.html?

..Hook,Line & Sinker.

From Post 42:

>> ..the universe demonstrates again and again that while humans seem to like to compartmentalise things into rigidly defined categories, it prefers things in continua. <<


Possibly the best Post 42 ever!
Long may the Hoo continua.


~jwf~

I am so glad I'm an alpha,

betas wear such horrid clothes, and don't get to play with such fantastic toys.......


“I’m so glad I am a Beta. Alpha children work much harder than we do because they’re so frightfully clever. I am really awfully glad I’m Beta because I don’t work as hard.”


Forget class.



G

<>

Ah, that's what we at the top of the class structure like to hear from those below us.

Noggin

This post has been removed.

Well Noggin me old Beagle what do you make of that? The first reply to #51, yours of two days ago, has now become an official "Posting Hidden". I have no idea what it said of course, but I suspect it was most unpleasant and meant to make you feel a right arrogant prat for sticking your neck out like that.

Taken out of context by a 'slow' reader the phrase: "we at the top of the class structure like to hear from those below us" could be mistaken for an invitation to ventilate pent up class frustrations.

Shall we contact the moderators and insist they make it a permanent removal? That way we can all imagine you really stirred up the ruffest of ruffians. And be truly grateful that the rule of law prevailed.


~jwf~

You didn't miss much ~jwf~, it was a bit of derogatory slang for upper class followed by an insult.

I made the complaint, not because it insulted me but because that sort of posting helps no-one in any cause.

I do not like the class system, I have no problem with talented valuable people receiving just rewards both in terms of finance and respect.

Our current system revolves round those who have the power taking a slice far bigger than their value simply because they can and oppressing the rest in order to keep it.

res ibsa loquitur...

Quack...

>> ..those who have the power taking a slice far bigger than their value simply because they can and oppressing the rest in order to keep it. <<


I wish I had the Latin. Then I could sagely observe that "the more things change, the more they stay the same". Or, "it was ever thus." Or "to the 'victor' go the spoils" or some other antique wisdom designed to clarify the human condition while never offering any solution to the inequities of the dog eat dog whirled we live in.

Thanks for the explanation of the moderation. You were right to complain and I hope it remains hidden. We can't have any old riff raff barging in and shouting the odds, what!

But I fear I too may have offended Noggin. Not so grossly as to be obviously moderated but my irony sometimes fails me in print. If only hje could have heard the great posh accent in which I wrote my comments, he might have granted me a tolerant smile. Pip-pip, tally-ho!


~jwf~

How to resolve the problem is interesting, clearly this has to come from the group exercising the ‘control’. It can-not be achieved by ‘overthrow’ or ‘revolution’ in modern times even though such activities have had some success in the past. The degree of control is too far reaching, even international, and bound up in financial constraints.

It would be futile for the 90% of the population who control a mere 10% of the wealth to overthrow the 10% who control 90% of the wealth unless they had access to all of it. Hastily arranged Laws of seizure would not be valid in International Scenes.

Man, (species – not gender) is to date the second most successful predator to roam this planet, the most capable being the Dinosaurs. Even the Dinosaurs only ate until their appetite was sated and then left whatever remained. Man however has an additional agenda – GREED, to have what is required, then to have some in reserve, then to have, have, have.

Mankind has subdued every species of Flora and Fauna on this planet and then subdued those regarded as lesser specimens of the same species. This is not the ‘Law of the Jungle’, that requires that the fittest survive and is necessary for development of the species. This is survival of the controllers, and clearly the controllers are in many cases far from being the ‘fittest’, merely the most ruthless, gaining much of their strength through alliances of like minds.

It is perhaps interesting to note that organisations such as the so called ‘Mafia’ were created to stand against the cruel Italian landlords of the day, a Noble cause indeed, but having achieved its aim, it too turned to greed and became the feared and hated institution we recognise today.

We have seen similar events in recent British History with the advent of Trade Unions, initially to stand against the cruel and overbearing Bosses of Industry. They became corrupt, not by wealth or power but by Political infiltration designed to disrupt and bring about the downfall of the Government (any Government). Margaret Thatcher is often credited with ‘bringing the Unions to heel’, nothing could be further from the truth. The corrupt Unions were in fact losing their grip already, the inherent sense of fair play which abounds in the ‘ordinary’ people of this Land had already taken care of that. (To quote Max Boyce, “I know ‘coz I was there”).

I know, it's all been said before, in the Bible, in Films, Poems, Protest songs and by people far more eloquent than me. Mankind will destroy Mankind by the use of GREED, the class system is merely a local and tangible aspect of it, it’s happening globally already.

Someone once said that ‘Nature abhors a vacuum’, Nature certainly abhors inequality, it is inequality which drives the weather, which if left to it’s own devices will always equalise everything it touches, a continuation, a flow. You may control some aspects of the weather or any natural flow for your own ends but ultimately it will destroy you for trying...

Thanks for all your interesting and useful replies. I used quite a few of the ideas you gave me with this class which led to some rather stimulating discussion. You might be interested to hear that one kid insisted that the only way to have a classless society was to make all the royal family do some proper work which would mean "them and their mates" would set an example to the rest of us, celebrities were just "poofs" and the only people who do any sort of worthwhile work are the bin men. I'm not sure what to make of that!

Thanks anyway - see you in another conversation!

'Them and their mates' setting an example seems to suggest an acceptance of their position, which worries me.

Celebs, that's fair comment, some of them want a kick up the whatsit.

'Bin men' used to do a good job, now they're just as bloody minded awkward as almost everyone else.

One thing for sure, if spacepeople came to visit, they would either stamp us out or run like hell, (probably the latter)

Pleased to have been able to provide part of your workbench, thank you for the opportunity....

Quack.