A Conversation for Ask h2g2

British Class System

Post 1

Corelli2

As part of the teaching of a particular play to 15yr olds, I need to discuss with them the British Class System back in the early 20th century and compare it to British Society today. Is anyone able to share any information/ideas on the subject? I would be particularly interested to know if anyone believes that Britain is now a class-less society and why. Thank you.


British Class System

Post 2

gadarene

tumble weeds................




smiley - winkeye

class system, what class system?

G


British Class System

Post 3

Watermusic

I heard this this morning on the World Service.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1318463,00.html


British Class System

Post 4

Hoovooloo


Britain today is most definitely NOT a classless society. Is anywhere?

The old class divisions were pretty simple and straightforward. The working classes were generally uneducated, and subsisted by selling their labour, generally at the sharp end of manufacturing industries such as steelmaking, coal mining, textile production and the like. They lived in low-quality accomodation and paid rent to a landlord, perhaps even their employer. The middle classes were educated, and lived comfortably by selling their expertise in professions such as medicine, teaching, the law, science and engineering. They lived in homes they owned. The upper classes were educated somewhat similarly to the middle classes, but had no need to sell anything as they gained income from their hereditary property holdings - they owned property well beyond what they needed to live in. The aristocracy lived on taxes.

There is no longer a huge manufacturing base in the UK. Safety and environmental legislation mean that people are no longer allowed to do the kind of dirty, dangerous jobs the working classes used to be used for (at least, not in this country...). There is still a working class, but they are no longer so clearly identifiable - they don't emerge from a day's work covered in s**t any more. The "labour" they sell is nowadays more likely their patience rather than their strength, as they sit in call centres or stand around selling things made in other countries.

The introduction of compulsory education and its extension to 16 years of age, plus the stated aim to get 50% of people into university, has meant that members of the working class with potential can now realistically aspire to the middle classes.

Margaret Thatcher's policy of selling off council houses meant that many people who previously regarded themselves as "working class" now, for the first time, own their home instead of renting. This led them to believe they were now middle class. This in turn led them to vote Conservative. smiley - laugh

The Conservative policy of privatising public industry and making share dealing available to everyone also gave the working classes access for the first time to the instant wealth possible from the stock market. Dealing in shares was something else previously traditionally associated with the middle or upper classes.

However, in the real world, it is still very much a case of it not being *what* you know, but *who* you know.

Most of the top jobs in the country go to graduates of Oxford and Cambridge, and most of the places at those universities go to people educated at private schools.

Ordinary working class people in the UK have a higher standard of living than ever before, with access to high quality healthcare, education, public services, affordable private transport, cheap foreign travel and endless affordable entertainment options. But that does not change the fact one iota that they remain working class. Some are proud of it, some have a chip on their shoulder about it, some refuse to believe it. But the reality remains.

Any more for any more?

H.


British Class System

Post 5

gadarene

Hoo?

How would you define your own class? Just out of curiosity.

And if my dad worked down the mine, my mother was a barmaid, does that mean I am working class?

G

smiley - winkeye


British Class System

Post 6

RFJS__ - trying to write an unreadable book, finding proofreading tricky

The class system around Derby doesn't even require the word 'class'. There are just certain implications that attend the words Duffield, Darley Abbey, Sinfin, even Allestree (although that last one depends, or ought to, on which side of the A38 you come from). However, people from these areas are all joyously united by their ability to understand the local class system. Well, maybe. At any rate, I suspect that 'class' describes a multi-layered set of in-group/out-group distinctions: group A, with its shared identity and common attributes, doesn't fully understand group B; group B, with its own notions of shared identity, understands neither A nor C; and so on.


British Class System

Post 7

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

Let us say thanks to Watermusic for that interesting if, quite understandably, not definitive article on a hopelessly complex issue with deep emotional and political roots:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,1318463,00.html

I just loved the idea that there are so many new mini-middle-classes or 'consumer tribes'. smiley - cheers There is no black/white two-class sytem anymore, just infinite shades of gray. And there-in perhaps lies the truth, for the truth will always lies, nearby, ...somewhere.

It seems the only cultural measure that matters in a consumer society is the way one embraces consumerism. All the other qualities of class have been abandoned, all that matters is money. And not just the quantity of money per se; no, even that is not the issue. What seems to matter most is how we spend it. By endorsing the idea of "Quality" over quantity they encourage us to spend what little we have on the best possible junk.

When the market controls society, market researchers become the arbiters of taste. Their findings are like the society pages of old, telling us who buys what and showing us how to define our place in society. It all began with the advent of consumer credit and the mantra, "buy now, pay later".

smiley - peacedove
~jwf~


British Class System

Post 8

Watermusic

I went on to find out 'Which (Middle) Class are you?' and supposedly belong to Alt.Middle. I suppose it's my age!


British Class System

Post 9

Hoovooloo

"How would you define your own class? Just out of curiosity."

Out of working, into middle.

"And if my dad worked down the mine, my mother was a barmaid, does that mean I am working class?"

No, it means they were. What do YOU do?

If you work down the mine, or in a bar, you're working class (probably). On the other hand, if you work in a bar to supplement your student loan while you study law, then you're probably middle class. And if you work in a bar because daddy owns the chain and he wants you to have some contact with the proles before your trust fund matures and you marry that scrummy fund manager you met at polo... well, work it out for yourself.

Like I said, there's a degree of mobility (pardon the pun) between working and middle class which is usually, but not always, dependent on education. There is much less mobility, I think, between middle and upper, because while the middle class is an heterogeneous mass with no great self-identity (see that article), the upper class still recognises itself as an exclusive club to which entry is strictly controlled.

H.


British Class System

Post 10

Ged42

Thing is now a days, is that you in a sense have two 'upper classes;' the old aristocratic upper class and the Celebrity class, and in many respects the Celebrity class is far more powerful in how it shapes public opinion, but much easier to get into and just as easy to fall out of.


British Class System

Post 11

Hoovooloo

Nah. Celebrity is very much a middle class profession which one may aspire to from the position of working class "jobbing" actor. Yes, it is much better paid than most other middle class professions.

But the idea that they are responsible for shaping public opinion is laughable. A celebrity is no more responsible for shaping public opinion than a hammer is responsible for the position of a nail. Celebrities are tools (some more so than others...). The shapers of public opinion are, almost without exception, the upper class backroom johnnies. The fact that this is not obvious is merely a tribute to how well they do their jobs most of the time.

H.


British Class System

Post 12

~ jwf ~ scribblo ergo sum

>> ..merely a tribute to how well they do their jobs most of the time..<<

Hear, hear! Well said. Jolly good.
Yes, well done Hoo. Bravo. Spot on.

smiley - winkeye
~jwf~


British Class System

Post 13

Ged42

Uh, oh, we've been rumbled. smiley - run


British Class System

Post 14

BouncyBitInTheMiddle

People who own newspapers.

I do wonder if the class system was ever really simple. I suspect its simplified so that you can get some sort of use out of it, and historians just wrote down the simplified version.


British Class System

Post 15

Blatherskite the Mugwump - Bandwidth Bandit

No, it really was that simple. In an age where people were defined by who their parents were, which in turn defined what you would do for a living, the definitions were easy and clear-cut. The lines are blurred when people can start as one thing and end up as another... nouveau-riche are certainly not viewed by the upper-class as equals, but also can't be identified with the group they started from.


British Class System

Post 16

I'm not really here

We had this discussion at work recently. We decided that I must be 'upwardly mobile' because my entire family are working class, I was only educated to age 16 and was working class when I was driving the taxi. But I now work in an office for the BBC. Sadly I don't feel that I have enough money to be middle class. My son is certainly better off than I was as a child, but that's likely to do with that fact that I've got one child and my parents had four.


British Class System

Post 17

The Doc

The "Class" system. How I loathe the whole idea! I left school at 16 with 1 single CSE, but went on to join an airline as an Engineering Apprentice, ended up educated to degree level with professional qualifications. What does that make me? Personally, I think society divides neatly into two – those who have to work to sustain their existence (at whatever level) and those that can swan around living on Mummy and Daddies Trust fund.
The two levels never mix - the Tara Palmer Tomkinson Trust Funders of the world have no clue whatsoever of what it means to earn an honest crust and they exist on an entirely different planet. Some of the rest of us attempt to leap this fence and join in the cocaine fuelled cocktail circuit – but are ridiculed by both sides of the fence for being so stupid as to think they can do it.

Why do people insist on labelling themselves? To join in and do this simply demeans oneself and just reinforces the “I know my place” mentality. We should pity the braying no brain “Tara’s” of this world who have never known the buzz of actually working for something and then finally getting it. To them, every single whim is granted and the value of it means nothing. The sad thing is that the “Tara’s” and “Hooray Henry’s” of the world only exist to meet each other and breed a new generation of the same beautiful people loafers who swan round believing themselves to be the best thing since sliced bread. The rest of us, hopefully, lead a far more satisfying and meaningful personal life – I know I do.


British Class System

Post 18

IctoanAWEWawi

Personnally, if there was ever a social class that attracted me, it would have to have been the underwolves. Can;t even remember what they were, I just fancied being an Underwolf smiley - biggrin


British Class System

Post 19

Ged42

Underwolf, is that some kind of secret society living in the sewers of Wolverhampton.




Though what do most people here define the classes by; is it wealth, 'breeding', property, fame, family background, education.


British Class System

Post 20

IctoanAWEWawi

if I remember correctly the underwolf was defined in the Independant. I think it covered the disenfranchised lower class (they don;t work you see, so can't be working class smiley - winkeye ). The underdogs, but with a bit more bite and independance smiley - biggrin I think anyway.


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