h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Seriously, I've been trying to spend money on a computer role playing game. I have looked around the shops and can't find anything - its like the developers don't want my money. I asked one of the people in the store and was offered Warcraft III. I'm not saying it's a bad game, in fact I quite like it, but theres no way it can be considered a role playing game - 'tis a flagrant RTS

Its not like I lack the hardware to play it. This computer will run all but the most graphically intensive games and I have every console since the SNES bar the dreamcast and the sega saturn.

Criteria for a roleplaying game:

Must have the ability to role play the character - generally expressed as multiple dialog options but could be actions, without choices you can't really be playing in character
Detailed background
Problems that are solved without killing anything

Criteria for a good roleplaying game:

(Does not need all, but the more the better)
Multiple ways to complete each problem
Non combat skills and/or attributes
Possibility to complete without resorting to combat
Multiple endings
Some sort of alignment system based on what you do

Examples of good roleplaying games:

Arcarnum
(Innovative background world, a few non-combat options, engaging backstory, nice alignment and aptitude systems)
Fallout 1 & 2
(Very good world, can complete the whole of Fallout 2 without ever attacking, almost twice as many non-combat skills as combat skills, multiple quest solutions, karma/reputation system - best roleplaying game out there)
Planescape: Torment
(Combat important but not emphasies - i.e. main character is immortal and can raise the dead pretty much at will, fantastic range of dialog options including saying the same thing with different intentions, all of the NPCs who can join have great backstories, a close second)

Examples of average roleplaying games:

Baldurs Gate I & II
Return to the temple of elemental evil
(Both have a reasonable amount of dialog and a few quests which can be sorted in interesting ways - its a shame that when you come right down to it you spend more time in combat than roleplaying)

Examples of good games pretending to be roleplaying games but are not:

Diablo I & II
(Its fun, especially on a network, but theres nothing more than hack'n'slash)
Icewind dale I & II
(All linear, all combat, virtually no optional quests, dialog is painfull, no point in developing non-combat attributes)

Exmples of bad games pretending to be roleplaying games:

Lionheart
(Very nice start, the first city showed great promise as a good roleplaying game, its just a shame that you may as well be playing a poor clone of diablo once you leave the first city. Unless you focused on speechcraft type skills in which case you may as well start from the beginning)
That new fallout game on the playstation thats an abomination to the fallout series whos name I can't remeber because I'm too mad.
('nuff said)

Stray shots:

Warcraft III
(I don't know by what strech of the imagination this can be considered a roleplaying game. You have a hero or two. Thats about it)

Real-time walking simulations:

Morrowind
(I enjoyed morrowind, but sooner or later - normally before you finish the game - it becomes a bit repetative. Also a bit too easy to break)

Notice that the more recent the game the further down the list it gets. There must be someone still making good roleplaying games - I refuse to belive that theres been nothing since Arcarnum, the games practically anchient. If you know of a suitable game tell me about it.

If not I'll wait for Fable, I think that theres some promise there.

What about Knights of the Old Republic? Okay, its a bit combat heavy, but it does have multiple endings, an alignment system, and a detailed background, heck even a nice a plot twist. Its based on Star Wars, so its a bit preachy at times, but sheer customizability(is that even a word?) of your weapons, characters, and armor is wayy cool. Half the time I'd fiddling with my lightsaber. I've played both Fallouts and I'd say this is as good as both of them. There are also a buttload of side quests on each world. Sadly I can't beat Darth Malak... You should check it out... If you buy it on the PC you get Yavin, which has a bunch of rare items and you get a third slot for upgrades.

Question: What is you're opinion on the Final Fantasy series? And RPGs that are like it?

~*~Examples of average roleplaying games:
Baldurs Gate I & II
(Both have a reasonable amount of dialog and a few quests which can be sorted in interesting ways - its a shame that when you come right down to it you spend more time in combat than roleplaying)~*~

Average!?! What do you mean, "average"? The Baldur's Gate Series is the Best!!

I know these are first person RPGs but try:

Deus Ex:
Very strong conspiracy theory laden plot with Multiple endings, moral choices and skill upgrades, lots of character interaction and dialog and you don't have to kill everything. Also has okayish sequel.

System Shock 2:
Very good story involving aliens, mad computers and corporate greed. Skill upgrades in fields like research, computer hacking and telepathic powers. Still one of the scariest games on the pc and features one of the best villians in computer game history, SHODAN.
Its prequel is just as good, but is very difficult to get hold of, and even harder to get running on a modern pc, but you don't have to of played it to enjoy the sequel.



(Also agree on Knights of the Old Republic, very good game, buy it now 'Meatbag')

I would agree with system shock 2, it took me 5 attempts to get to the end bit, but several goes to actually finish, as I kept missing clues, and the end is a nice twist, I kept thinking I was at the end, and up would pop another level!

I really want to try system shock 1, or something similar

System shock 2 comes with different difficulty levels from easy to supposably immpossible

System shock 2, Dues Ex and Knights of the old replublic are all games that are currently in this house.

KotOR is a fine game, I just forgot to mention it, I'd still describe it as average - being vast in no guarantee of being a good game but it's farily enjoyable and since there aren't many rpgs reaching the lofty title of average it's heads above anything else we've seen in years.

Dues Ex isn't really much good as a roleplaying game. Don't get me wrong its a cool shooter but you get bottlenecked into doing the same thing each time - the first time I played it I happened to choose the options that the game wanted me to and it seemed quite good, but on my second run through I felt like every decision I made the game gave me an extra bit of cutscene and then overwrote with the decision it wanted me to make. Also it suggested some roleplaying type goals, such as not killing anyone on the first level and if you acheived this (and it wasn't easy) then the game gave no indication of it which made the whole thing pretty unrewarding.

System shock 2 kinda fits into the metroid catagory, its a shooter with a background but it is not neccasary or important. You can take it or leave it. I did like the training bit at the start though, a very nice touch. Still I'd say what you do in most games can be split between being immersed in story and decisions, thinking and fighting. Rolplaying games need more of the first. strategies more of the second and action games (Shooters, beat'em'ups etc.) need more of the latter. System shock 2 definitely leaves you fighting for 90% of the time.

How can Baldurs gate be claimed to be better than Planescape:Torment? They use the same underlying system but planescape torment has a lot of extra features, a better story and more detailed characters. Have you played any of the games I've listed as good? If not how can you tell that Baldurs gate is better.

I've played FFI - FFX2 but I've only finished FFV - FFX2, I'm currently working on 4. I really enjoy the final fantasy series and things like it (If you've not played it Shadow hearts is a damn good one) they're not roleplaying in the proper sense of the word (can you tell someone whos gone from tabletop to computer?) they almost define a class on their own but if I had to pidgeonhole them strategy is the closest I can think of (Depending on which one and how turn based the combat is) - I do spend more time thinking about methods of upgrading, customising the characters and the combats (which make a fair proportion of the game) are generally turn based to one degree or another which benefits a strategist over a twich reactionary. I maintain that good strategy in a FF game means that there is no need to level. I finished 7 at lvl32 and when I finished 10 I was hitting for 4000 pts of damage and still had some stats in single digits (I'm told this is low)

There are some good non-rpg games out there. The problem is that I'm playing Arcarnum, Planescape:Torment and Fallout through again and I am running out of options. I suppose I haven't manageed Fallout as an evil character who everyone loves and I still haven't managed to read Fall-from-grace's diary in Planescape:Torment (if it's even possible) but I must have finished 99% of the optional quests in most of the different ways available (I even tried to do navarra in fallout by stealth alone - that didn't end well)

Problem is all of the good lines of game are being turned into shooters. Baldurs Gate dark allience for example. Or that fallout game on the playstation whos name shall not be mentioned.

Knights of the old republic is denied to me until my housemate brings it back from Chester.

Maybe Fable will be good.

Then again I said the same about lionheart *spit*

If you like the Final Fantasy style RPGs you should try Anachronox on the PC, It's got great characters and is very funny.


As for RPGs in production:
I heard about that Fable, is that the one where you play through a guy's entire life?

I also heard of one called 'A Bard's Tale,' which is kind of spoof of the fantasy genre, your character's an abject coward and seems to spend most the game in pubs

There's also KOTR 2: The Sith Lords, I've heard that your appearance in the game changes as you move towards the light or darkside and that you can corrupt/enlighten your companions towards the light and dark as well



What the online RPGs like Everquest?
World of Warcraft especially looks good.

I've played anachronox - I did enjoy it. Something I really like in that style of game is where there is a hidden character not mentioned in the manual etc. Unfortunately the FF series hasn't managed it since 7, but in anachronox well...I wouldn't have guessed that character, not in a million years. And the comic book level was distilled genius on a stick.

Never heard of a bards tale and I didn't know they were making a KOTR2 so thats worth looking into. Thanks

Yeah, fable is like that. Its meant to be very heavy on the alignment thing, most quests are solved in one way (combat, stealth etc.) but can be solved in such a way as to make you good or evil. Theres also meant to be a reputation system affecting how people react to you and this is influenced by your appearance etc. Another thing that seems interesting is the boasting system - when you get a quest you can stand up and announce things like "I can do this without any weapons" or "Won't take 5 minutes" etc. and if you manage it you get greater rewards. This sounds like it lets you tailor the difficulty as well so an interesting system. High hopes for fable. The only downside is that the Xbox belongs to my girlfriend so she gets to play it first

I can't afford to get into massive multiplayer online games. Besides which they are too easily spoilt by the other players, all it takes is a person whos been playing for too long to decide he doesn't like you and its back to the start, new character, thank you very much.

I do so hope the reference to 'Bard's Tale' is either a completely different game or you have totally been mislead on it. Bard's Tale is a very old RPG, I first encountered it on the old Amstrad CPC computers. It is a very good RPG and the bard is a very powerful character. It was one of the first to have a 3D interface (first I saw being Bloodwych which a dodgy games company screwed me out 20 quid and then disappear, so still haven't played it! ) and first person view of the world (albeit it on tiny screen but thems the limitations of the time). If ya wanna bit of decent retro gaming google for an Amstrad CPC emulator and Bards Tale (v3 I think was the one I liked the best). The reason I say this is that there is a Fan based new version/ new chapter in the series.

Anyway, I have very siomilar problems with current games. Morrowind was very pretty. And pretty good. But I finished it, and both the add ons without too much problem. As opposed to Daggerfall (which was also buggy) but more immersive.

DivDiv (Divine Divinity was pretty good, but a bit old school). The entire Baldurs Gate is a load of complete Tosh. Level caps, linear to the point of being pointless. Might and Magic is OK but a bit lacking in the feeling.
Arx Fatalis is pretty cool but life potions and so forth are limited so you really have to think. It is also a bit linear but something different. I was pleasantly surprised by it.

Neverwinter Nights was too linear again.

Which is why I am currently playing zangband When the new boys fail to impress, go back to the (almost) beginning. The 3d Isometric support even has proper icons and stuff so aint spending half the time deciphering ascii characters as codes! Kept me occupied for a fair few hours and very stable.

of those mentioned I've only played NWN which isn't as good as good old pen'n'paper RPGs which is why I tend to stick to strategy games on the computer

http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=1114

for the Original System Shock, and the enhanced CD version. That game gave me nightmares The site also has Ultima Underworlds I and II and numerous others. Though they are not true RPG's I would recommend the various Thief games. In fact, in general, find any Looking Glass Technology game and play the hell out of it. Until later...
BCNU - Crescent

When you say Baldurs gate was a load of tosh are you reffering to the Baldurs gate games or all of the games of that style? While planescape:torment was linear it still had a lot of damn good ideas and some of the dialog is fantastic - I don't know a person who didn't enjoy the scene before you fight Ravel (I reference to the fight so as not to spoil it for anyone whos not played)

I'm still playing angband - though its not really a roleplaying game, you still spend all your time fighting, but theres somthing painfully addictive about it... btw are you on the h2g2 angband group?

Not sure about strategy games on the PC recently. There are an awful lot of RTS games out there, these annoy me on account of not being proper strategy games - it rarely matters if you manage to flank or get behind an opponenet and quick use of the mouse is more helpfull than in deph thinking. I'm currently playing Imperium Galactica II and alpha centuri over the network, both quite enjoyable. Medievil total war was quite good too. Does anyone know anything about this 'Two thrones' game - I've only seen the back of the box and it looks promising, but after lionheart I've learned my lesson about trusting games to accurately describe themselves.

I haven't got round to playing Planescape yet. I meant Baldurs Gate games themselves. Although haven't tried Icewind Dale yet.

Nope, not on the angband group. Shall have to have a looksee!

On the Morrowind front, there are some major, and I mean major!, mods from the community coming out. Complete game rewrites. Some of which look very good indeed. Seems to be quite an active modding community out there. Might be worth keeping an eye on some of them.

I guess whether something is roleplaying or not depends on your view. Angband, Diablo, DiableII are definite power gaming. ie lots of hack and slash, which is often the way that 14yr olds play D&D or AD&D. After all, thicko fighter with big sword and violent tendancies *is* a role, and you *are* playing it

Ok. But so's a homicaidal worm who has access to a arsenal of exploding sheep, but I think it's a bit of a strech of the imagination to call worms a roleplaying game. I think it's a roleplaying game when you get to choose the role that you play. Thats why its so important to have choices, notice a lot of the things I say make a good roleplaying game involve choice: dialog options, character development options beyond combat, multiple puzzle solutions, multiple endings etc.

Morrowind is a bit of an oddball. It gives a LOT of options. However they are all concerned with stat and possesion building. Theres no real chance for character devlopment, no moral conundrums, no puzzles, no serious negotiations (Speaking of which wasn't the negotiation quest in Arcarnum great! Getting the two sides to agree to a settlement wasn't that difficult, but if you wanted to make unpopular decisions to claim as many bribes as possible it's quite challenging. Arcarnum is one of the few RPGs that it's more fun to be evil.)

I'll keep an eye on morrowind. I never finished it though, I have a tendancy to try to complete every sidequest in every game - I think I would be an old man before I acheived that in morrowind.

Angband page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/plain/A1050634
It's not very active but people speak up once in a while.

If you didn't like Baldurs gate you will hate icewind dale. Basically take Baldurs gate II. Remove the ability to go to any location not concerned with the main quest. Remove any non-combat and non-fetch&carry sidequests. Remove any character background. Add some new races and combat options. Remove any attempts to disguise standard kill/fetch&carry quests to make them more interesting. Remove any NPCs with any characters. Make it prettier. There you have icewind dale II. I can't say I played the first one.

I'm right with you. Planescape: Torment is a marvellous game, and though there are times when you have to engage in a bit of hack 'n slash (like Ravel, for instance) it's far more desirable to talk you way around a situation. And the number of side quests is enormous. All quite pleasing.

I found the I quite enjoyed the Magic & Magic series. Right up till the ninth one (the last, I believe), as they decide to complete ruin the franchise with that one. Shame.

I'd like to get more into the Final Fantasy series as well, but there's only a few available on PC. Ho hum.

I liked the last Ultima game too. Never really got into the whole series, but I did find that last one quite playable.

Actually, one of the features that I most prise about RPGs is turn-based combat. If it isn't turn-based then my interest drops massively. Fortunately Planescape was able to overcome this initial wariness, but it's a very rare game that manages it.


Geggs

I admit to prefering more tactical combat in my rpgs, but a real-time appraoch where you can give orders in pause seems almost as good as turn based only my space bar gets worn down. Look out for the final fantasy system, exempting FFX which is true turn based, they all look turn based, but in fact it adds moves to the queue when you order tham and you can't see the queue. You can only see the order in which people had opportunities to issue orders This is annoying.

Example 1 of my characters is badly injured so I order another to cast a cure spell. The turn order shows that the healer is up next followed by the monster. In the delay between me making the decision and clicking the button the monster decides to attack them. The game gives me no indication of this, my healer is apparently still going first, until the monsters action starts to resolve a few seconds later so I go ahead a click anyway. The monster kills my character. At this point my other character has not taken his turn and could theoretically cast his raise spell, however the orders been given so he goes ahead and wastes his turn on an illegal spell allowing the monster to crush him as well.

You should get into the series anyway because its good fun. It also means you can join the debate on whether FFVII was better than FFVIII or not.

If you like your turnbasedeness then try the Fallout series. Excellent turn based game.

Actually, I think I've got Fallout I & II, but I've never really got into them. Maybe I should dig them out and give them a whirl.


Geggs

I haven't got Fallout I, nowhere seems to sell it. I can see why it would be hard to get into Fallout II, the opening three areas have most combats and the least rolplaying in the whole game. Trust me it gets better.

Its more a tactical shooter, but you might enjoy Jagged Alliance 2.
It played from a isometric view and is real time up until the shooting starts, where it switches to turn based action.

You play a group of mercenaries (mercs) who have been hired to liberate a fictional South American country from an evil dictator. The Mercs are fun and feature great voice acting, there's a Merc generator which has a very amusing questionaire.

Be warned though it is incredibly difficult, i still haven't completed it.