h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I am worried that the more the 'government' intereferes in the family the less parents will have any responsibilities.

Also it will possiblly be banning smacking today but what about tomorrow.Will the social engineers be able to just be happy when they have banned all smacking?

I suspect not.Next it will be that we can't shout at a child because it is humiliating to them.

Just how far do you want these people to go.I can see a time when the ONLY responsibility we are allowed to assume as parents is to pay the bills.

It might be nice if those that think they are super parents might possibly set up the situation that us pisspoor parents get the help we need to control unruly children.However I doubt it as it will be cost prohibited.Teach parent craft in schools?Been there done that.Some appreciate it but the majority find it hard to visualise themselves as parents and they cannot apply themselves as much as they should.

Maybe we should be getting our children and future parents to be to assess why they want to be parents?Mind some never ever plan for it and some of those that do usually do so for all the wrong reasons.

Anyway I was smacked and I'm not an abusive child hating adult.My children were gently smacked when small.However once they turned 4/5/6 years old I began to find myself more able to reason with them and to get them to cooperate with family rules.

They have turned out to be smashing kids that I have a wonderful relationship with.Indeed I went to my daughters graduation from university today.She is a terrific person whom I'm very proud of.She doesn't resent the fact that she was smacked and is very concerned that this ruling will bode ill for good decent parents whilst the feckless,useless,apathetic and truly abusive parents will just carry on and nothing will change.Children will still die not because smacking is allowed but because some people should never become parents.

Banning handguns did nothing for getting rid of gun crime.Neither will banning smacking prevent REAL child abuse.

Incog.

You know...people who are going to break the law are going to do it regardless of whether the law is there or not.

Legislation is rarely as useful as education.

And as useful as BB's points about resources and alternatives are, they aren't available at three o'clock in the morning when you've been with the kid all day and no matter how nice you are and how carefully you explain they won't calm down or be quiet or even listen to you and what's wose you cannot walk away or leave to calm down because they'll follow you.

And if you leave the house and shut the door...what then?

Sometimes, parenting skills fail you. And if, for whatever reason, you're on your own...

Kids are also very odd. Sometimes they get tired after an evening watching the TV and are asleep hours in advance of bedtime. Sometimes they can swim for hours, run and play for hours and then take a five minute break for a glass of water and then go do it all again until it's dark. Then you have to drag them in, only literally sometimes, and then they wall-of-death around the house until YOU collapse.

Here's what I know. Until I became a parent I had no clue what it was like to be a parent. And until I became a parent and found out how hard it is, I had no idea how often my judgement and temper would be tested. I am frankly surprised that more parents don't go totally skitz (technical term, vicar) and end up on medication.

Heres some of what parents are still responsible for:

Bills

emotional development

intellectual development

their health

their physical development

All these things are not only legislated for by governemtn but they are supported by the governemnt.

Parents are also responsible for their childrens social development one of the greatest privilidges a person can have as well as being a burden.

Thats the double edged sword of parenting. I loved looking after my younger brothers and sisters beause I loved them and it was fun. I really wish I hadnt been so brutal and intransigent when things werent going well or they wouldnt do exactly as I'd say. I hated it when they cramped my style and took up time I'd have rather spent doing other stuff. I had better in me all a long but some how I lost sight of that and did some terrible things to them.

I f****ed things up big style, but I hope I have learnt fron those mistakes and they dont copy me. My one brother certainly has problems with violence and aggression. He doesnt express his emotions well and is in and out of jail.

In looking after them I copied the worst example I'd seen growing up, I hope in future I can follow the better one I had from the my grandparents. Thing is they apparently only learned from the mistakes they made with my mom and my aunts



"You know...people who are going to break the law are going to do it regardless of whether the law is there or not".


Kids still bunk of school and even though its free parents still allow their children to bunk off. Should we scrap education legislation becasue of this.

The argument some of you are making is that we should not ban smacking because you parents need it for your (mostly) 0-5 year olds as far as I can tell from these threads. Yet you know that this situation can not only lead on to other abuse but also in and of its self allows for abuse on a daily basis.

Someone asked if shouting at your children should be banned well it already is for other people. If your neighbour or your boss constantly or even intermitently bellowed abuse at you with no justification they could be sued, prosecuted or taken to an industrial tribunal. Parents to children to do anything about this would be interfering wouldnt it?

one love

It's clear that nobody here is going to agree with those with an opposing view.

It's been interesting, but circular and i'm no so dizzy and sick (of it) that I'm getting off. No amount of any legislation is going to change my attitude to how I bring up my parents.

(btw: school is compulsory, and some parents don't give a stuff. But there are other parents who patiently go through homework, help prepare stuff, join the PTA and help not only their own but other people's kids. And we don't begrudge the time.)

Laws about social responsibility and the other things Blicky mentioned are surperflous for the good/adequate parents. We ignore them (and yes, that was we - I'm not a bad parent and I'd take issue with anyone who says I am. Do the mile in my shoes thing: because then you'll be a mile away when you get the tongue lashing and it won't be so emotionally painful for you)

Inadequate and pisspoor parents ignore laws like that anyway.

Oh and did I spot a "your children" or two in there?

Hi everyone

I've been following this thread, and let me just state first of all that I have no children, so have no experience of parenting.

Right, got that one out of the way.



In an ideal world with ideal children (and parents) and no environmental stresses, I'd like to think that physical discipline would be unnecessary.
However, I can imagine that trying to deal with a screeching squealing toddler that was trying to run into the road despite one's best attempts to hold onto them would maybe need an immediate, physical intervention.

I had a long discussion with my partner last night about the rights and wrongs of using physical discipline with a child (I dislike the word 'slap' or 'spank' as to me it implies a blow to the body rather than a reprimanding tap), and I was of the opinion that should we ever have children and he was to physically discipline them it would be a sacking offence. As we talked however I realised where that came from.
I have memories of my mother slapping me (hard!) for reasons that I did not understand, and seem, on reflection, to have been mainly an acting out of her own inner turmoil, stresses and pain. I don't remember (but that's not to say that it wasn't the case) the slapping as being a disciplinary measure.

I have come to the conlusion that people who remember being severely or continually slapped or hit by their parents tend to either do the same to their own kids or shy away entirely from physical discipline.
I was in the camp of shying away.

My partner however has a very different memory of his own childhood, and remembers his mum physically reprimanding him for misbehaving and doesn't hold it against her. She was consistent, fair, and was only (gently) physical when absolutely necessary.
If I had had a similar upbringing I would be far less jumpy about the smacking issue.



I wasn't going to post at all, but I am stunned by some of the things that BB is coming out with. I understand that his (?) own childhood was less than ideal, but he seems to be transferring his experience onto everyone else. Just because your parents beat the living s**t out of you doesn't mean that other parents who use physical discipline go to the same extremes. I agree that violence breeds violence, but we don't live in an ideal world, and children can be little monsters!
I think also that there needs to be clarification of what is is physical discipline - a tap on the the back of the hand/legs/bottom is *way* different that being slapped round the head, or spanked hard.

BB you are being offensive to many people, and I find it astounding that you can personally attack people (by calling them stupid or whatever) for being honest, and who are in all probability, great parents.... and then to sign off with "one love".


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Humm, now I'm doing the same with the personal attacks.

Sorry for the long post everyone.

Oh and parents, keep up the good work of raising your little 'uns.

"I smack my kids because I was smacked and it did me no harm"

And *I* am the onetransefering my experience

Yes I am saying that simple and minimal physical reprimands can lead to serious abuse. I say this because it not only happened to my brothers and sisters, but not me, its a long and complicated story.

My opinion of parents who see no need to abandon smacking is a hearfelt thing. It is also based around the fact that the parents obstinately refuse to adopt methods that negate smacking. Yes I have done 24/7 care of children. Often sole adult at a ratio of one to five. At sixteen I was doing it at a ratio of one to five but without the training and proffesional support that I now have the privilidge of.

I got it very wrong at one point and dont consider myself as perfect now. But here are the facts I have never had to smack a toddler to keep them out of a busy road or to stop them having a tantrum. I kkep children that age well awauy from busy roads Id be doing something wrong if they were even ablr to do such a thing. As for tantrums you let the kid ride it out and talk to them after about their emotions, perhaps them they wont grow up as emotinal illiterates who can voice their feelings without fear of being smacked or metaphorically jumped on.

I get sad when I think about children being hit for things they dont understand or things about themselves they cant control or find difficult to change. None of you may do it but it happens.

Do we tell parents that such things are wrong or enshrine the right in law?

one love

No one should be excluded.

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There is a difference between hitting/beating a child and physically reminding them that what they are doing is unnacceptable/unsafe. I'm sorry that you had an unfortunate upbringing and that minimal physical reprimands led to abuse, but that is not always the case. That is why I said that you were transferring your stuff onto other situations and people.



I'm glad that you have so much wisdom and knowledge about raising children BB, maybe you should write your own parenting guide??
Until you are child's carer 24/7, I don't think you (or I) have the right to judge those that are.

From reading blickybadger's posts I understand that he's had some parenting experience and regrets the mistakes he thinks he made.

Hats off to you for the honesty, BB.

It seems that "people" feel there is a right way and a wrong way to parent. I say that this changes with the specific child. What works with my six year old and what works with the eight year old are very, very different things. With the Youngest Gradientling I have got to the point where I only have to frown slight and raise my eyebrow for her to realise she's doing something I don't approve of and comes to ask what's wrong. With her older sister it takes days and days of saying the same thing over and over before she understands something.

But then Gradientling #3 is a bit of a scientist and likes to test a hypothesis under all circumstances and for all values of 'Dad'.

Sho and other parents on h2g2 have been a source of much comfort. Once you realise that it's not just /your/ kids that think it's amusing to stick macaroni to the cieling or cover their bedroom with the last of the toilet paper, or paint the cat pink you feel so much less exasperated.

Ah yes, h2g2 can be a haven and help in times of "grrrrr why can't I just send the little blighters back where they came from"

Gradient's point about different children need a different approach is very very true. And each child changes - very quickly sometimes - so that an approach that worked a week ago is no longer appropriate.

It's a learning experience for everyone, including the parents.

Blicky, you might also like to take into account that children almost never behave the same with other people as they do with their parents. I often think that kids who push the boundaries with their parents often feel comfortable doing so because they can pretty accurately predict the result. (If I look at my two in a cold hard calculating way, rather than as my children that I love above all else, I can see that they do this. It's quite a comfort to know this, because it means that my attempts at consistency are working)

Of course, there are exceptions.

I really appreciate everyone's honesty in this thread. It's enlightening.

How many times have you heard people say stuff like "my grandad smoked 20 fags a day and lived to the age of 73" or "that Serge Blanco smoked fags in the changing room and still managed to be one of the worlds best rugby players of his generation and probably ever" Do either of these arguments mean that smoking is a good thing?

This like the facts that many children come through being smacked as kids unscathed and a great deal of parents manage to keep their smacking under control, avoiding straying into what is undebateable abuse does not necessarily mean that smacking is a good thing.

Children under the age of sixteen smoke some with their parents knowledge and tacit approval. Does this mean that the laws banning the sale of tobacco products to those under sixteen are a waste of time and that the government should keep its "nanny state" interfering out of whether children smoke or not?

Im *not* projecting the things that happened to my family onto others it has always happened is happening now and will continue to happen to other children and parents in other families. FACT. Not my twisted fantasy or deluded nightmare.


"Maybe you should write a book??"
In my work and as a coach I have spoken to parents about the way they treat their children. Part of my new job in September will be to work with parents about how they disciplin and encourage good behaviour in their children. The toughest part of my work with children is mostly around establishing discipline without using smacking.

Chlidren and yound adults who are exploring their identities and roles will stretch the boundaries to see just what is acceptable. Unfortunately this can be a problem if beyond saying something like "No this is totally unacceptable because...." There exists in their mind the idea that there is one more level of reprimand beyond that. To which no worker worth their salt would resort to using.

Children who havent been smacked in the home will listen to what you have to say more readily, but they can have thier behaviour derailed by chidren who turn up with the mindset where smacking is the only thing that will dring them round to things they are strongly against eg. rules they dont want to follow.

Children who have grown up with smacking often smack other children. This is not only a problem for those being smacked but also because this a behaviour that can easily end up being copied by other children.

Even if a child is not presently being smacked if that child sees older people smacking children they can copy this behaviour on other children younger than themselves quite commonly.

Children who are smacked in the home can conversly not be violent towards others but be much shyer and readily accept subordinate roles in a group because of this.

one love

Some of your points are valid, but you still seem to making some rather broad assumptions.

You still talk about smacking as though it is always something that occurs on a frequent, regular basis for a lengthy period. Sometimes that is the case, but my understanding of most of the posters who have talked about smacking their children is that it has been infrequent & only during a short period of the young child's life.

You obviously don't agree with even this, but you shouldn't bracket all types of smacking together as having the same impact on the child.

You still talk about smacking as though it is always something that occurs on a frequent, regular basis for a lengthy period.

It does in some house holds no one else here is higlighting that, some are saying that this is not the case in their homes. Im *not* calling them liars though.

Im sorry that I gaven that impression I really didnt mean to.



You obviously don't agree with even this, but you shouldn't bracket all types of smacking together as having the same impact on the child.

Im dealing with the effects that smacking can and too often do have on children.

As actual real life parents have said here different parents and different children have vastly different personalities. Is it inconceivable to you and others here that some mild violence, like irregular smacking, could have the same psychological impact on a child as serious child abuse?

Im not someone who advocates the prosecution of parents for the occassional tap or who says it is entirely the same as prosecutable abuse.

However though not being two sides of the same coin they are part of the same transaction of power and punishment.

In the same way that money cant by you love but can buy you sex. Using your power to punish doesnt bring discipline but it does do something that looks quite like it.

You may, as others have countered, say parents know their children better than this. Know how their kids behave and know what is the best way of bring them up to know right from wrong. I say that this blanket opinion is tosh. If I had a pound for everytime I had a parent say my child would "never" do such a thing when I had *seen* the child doing what I was allegedly "making up" I'd be able to dine out in style for a week.

one love

You talk about us having a blanket opinion?You are just as guilty of that and even less likely to listen to any other opinion than your own.

You keep with your ideas.It may work for you when you are a parent,it may not.

However banning smacking will never,never,never prevent child abuse.

Incog now unsubscribing from a very pointless non discussion.

I know that banning smacking wont stop child abuse.

I know that laws against rape have never stopped that but we still have laws against indicent assault.

Is anyone about to suggest that we should not have laws against indicent assault because our present laws have not stopped rape

Incognitas is welcome to bury his head in the sand if he wishes

Blicky,

I can see what you're saying and I know what the law is for: it's to draw a line and say 'beyond this point, no more'.

What you need to understand is the view of parents that are suddenly affected by this law. These are the people who have been bringing up kids for years and are now, all of a sudden, having to ask themselves whether they have abused their children.

How do you think that feels?

Legislation does draw that line. But it also takes formerly good parents and makes them bad parents. That's not fair.

Yeah I'l agree you have a point and to those parents Im sure its an important one.

The major point though is where should our priortities be?

Fair Laws


Effective laws

or

Laws that people are happy with.

The best thing would be all three.

The law is clearly unfair as it stands and I have explaind why numerous times.

The law is ineffective as it stands it allows for chastisement which anyone will tell you is useless in isolation and hit and miss (sorry about the pun) even in conjunction with other methods. While it also allows for some extreme punishments to slip through the net.

Some like me are unhappy with the laws and even some pro-smacking parents have posted that they dont like to see other children being smacked. Though some cling to the right like an NRA member would cling to his or her gun.

Harmonising the rights of children would be

Fair.

Could turn out to be as effective as the laws about rear seat belts.

Popular with wooly minded liberal types and children, but as we are not the ones who would have to change in order to observe the laws this is the biggest stumbling block

I understand the sea change necessary for a law like this to be effective and accepted but not making it a law will only ingrain the idea that smacking is a useful and deserved right of parenthood. When it is being shown more and more to be an anacronistic and counterproductive idea from a by gone age.

Like putting butter, vinegar and brown paper on wounds we have found better ways of dealing with things now. Why dont we do what it takes to get *all* parents out of the dark ages in their thinking.

one love

Well I certainly hope the law changes to stop people who have a history of child abuse both physical and sexual from ever working with children.
That would be a start.

Well, I've come back from the weekend to find it going round and round in circles, and once again no one being able to answer what I thought was quite a reasonable question. So I'll unsubscribe, there seems to be no point to this.

Before I go, someone posted earlier asking how it must feel for parents who hit their children to have to consider whether or not they have abused them, and how awful that must be.

They've abused them. I hope it feels terrible.

/unsubscribe

The law does allow for employers to view the offences of prospective employees and volunteers who will have contact with chidren vulnerable adults or any sort of sensitive situation eg. nurse or prison officer. The Criminal Records Bureaue holds and distributes such information, but it is only as good as the information put into it.

I was never prosecuted or even charged for what happened in my past. It is a hit and miss affair some people like Ian Huntley slip through the net. I dare say that there are people who have smacked children in a rage who are working with children now however as it was their own children *that* does not matter.

(Yes, I have put parents who smack in the same paragraph as myself who violently abused my own family and a child murderer. No, I am not saying they are all on the same level. They are at different points on a scale where the strond use their power over those weaker though. Legality is another question, but the law is a tricky and innacurate instrument.)

Also it can be ignored by employers if they dont want to use it. The whole CRB checks and even stranger danger awareness is all basically window dressing by the governemtn. Most reported child abuse is not from outside the home but within it.(reported figures are unreliable for an accurate picture because of the nature of the problem though). Thing is the media, politicians and parents are in the main all more than willing to shift the focus of legislation and government action away from where it is most needed. Perhaps as a society we are unwilling to look at our own inner demons and face up to the facts that parents are not automatically loving and caring. We should celebrate when they are perhaps.

Maybe I was a little tough on some of the parents here, but I will not take back the marrow of anything I have said. I hope you are as good a bunch of parents as you seem to be. Yet you are missing important information if you still think smacking is a good tactic to use with your children.

one love