h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Incidentally, I pay my licence fee (well, 50% of it - my house mate pays the other half), and I'd like to be able to read, learn, and speak a little German on h2g2 - to try and keep my meager abilities in that language from completely freezing up. Most people in the UK will have been taught a foreign language at some point. And there's minority languages like Welsh. And there's the benefit of greater contact with foreign nationals. Allowing non-English languages on h2g2 would be providing a service *both* to UK Researchers *and* non-UK Researchers, and perfectly in line with the BBC's remit.

Regarding Douglas's books, clearly everything was translated by the Babelfish into Arthur Dent's language, including visuals.
The alternative explanation is that The Guide was written in a language used in a small portion of a planet that is so unimportant that it warrants only one eight-letter word as a complete description, and was casually demolished to make way for a super-highway. This seems to me implausable, to say the least.

Which has nothing to do with anything, but it's an interesting diversion, no?

-Martin

They were. That's the thing with books - once ink is committed to paper, there's nothing much you can do there. I love books, but they're rather undynamic.

Now - a website. Dynamic? You mean you can make contents change all the time... And that people can continually write to it and express themselves. Wow... what a wonderful idea.

(Excuses for being sarcastic. Usually this topic just makes me sad. Suddenly, however, I needed to let some out...)

Oh.
Proof, please, from the text of the novels (or anything else written by DNA) that the Babelfish translates visual signals while being placed in the ear.
Or is your anatomy somehow different from mine and you have your visual and aural stimuli entering through the same orifice?
Which is not the same thing as having things leave the body through the same orifice, btw.

"The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. "


Writing would seem like a form of language, no?

> "Proof Please"

A263963

I win.

It says 'said'. Not written.

It does indeed. "speech centres" too. Ahh well.

How sloppy is the thinking here?

SAID-implies speech, not writing, as NOS points out.
Besides, to be a telepathic wave, it has to come from a living being, or aqre you saying that the book is a from of technology that transmits telepathic thought forms? If so, again, I'd like to see proof of that.

I Win in this context presumably has some meaning that I was not previously familiar with.

The Book is clearly sophisticated technology, and in a universe where even the coffee machine sends out unconscious mental frequencies (and how else does Arthur understand it), it'd be surprising if it *didn't* send out mental frequencies. "said" as a word doesn't refer to purely spoken language, as in sentences like "The newspaper said that Queen Margaret was a caffeine junkie".

"speech centres" did confuse me, but on reflection the fish is only taking the decoding information from those centres - and there is plenty of overlap in the brain between processing heard and written words. The sent information can come from any unconscious mental frequencies, whether spoken, written, or mimed. (Which would surely put a damper on charades...)

Since you said the sound "could have been translated directly by the Babel Fish that Arthur is provided with" I thought you were in agreement on this point. What is certainly *irrelevant* to the discussion is by what orifice visual and aural stimuli enter, nor where the fish is placed, nor any distinction between visual and aural signals. When I said "I win", I wasn't anticipating you changing the nature of your argument every time an objection was shot down.

Still, that's sloppy thinking for you, eh?

-Xanthia

"SAID-implies speech, not writing, as NOS points out."

Not necessarily.

""Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom
of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a
sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.""

"In the sky a huge sign appeared, replacing the catalogue number.
It said, Whatever your tastes, Magrathea can cater for you. We
are not proud."

'Said' might refer to signs i.e. written text. Nowher in the books it is said that Arthur or all the other creatures could not read any and all languages.

Ah, yes, but, But, BUT, dear ones and donuts,
HOW many languages was the book or the recordings of the original
BBC radio show translated into?

Reading is an auditory experience.
There is no cultural reason to deliver notation to paper if you cannot sing or play.

Braille is neither hearing or seeing. Which part of the brain does that use?

Fascinating.
I think it only right to point out how easily you've been deflected from the argument here-about foreign language postings and their use on h2g2-into an intellectual cul-de-sac dealing with the biological functions on the workings of a purely mythical book and creature.

So what's important, the prinicipal of the thing, or just having a good old argument about something, anything *or* nothing at all, eh, gents?

Toodle pip, I'm off again for a couple of months/days/minutes/seconds, whichever I feel like.

As long as there are no news here I might as well listen to what you are saying and react to that.

The principal of the thing is that a British gentleman apparently
lying half-sloshed on a hill in another country (if I remember correctly) came up with an idea that encompassed the universe.
Said gentleman apparently had a facility with at least a couple of
languages.
Said gentleman is the reason for this site.

I have read all 5 parts of the trilogy both in German and English. I have to admit that the English version is much better than the German translation. If it hadn't been for h2g2, I would never have developped enough English reading skills to make that judgement.

I'm afraid I am still misunderstood: I have never posted in languages other than English (except for extremely short postings). I never was a part of the Germania Connection. It is my strong and sincere will that the predominant language of the Guide should be English, just becaus it's the most common language in our community. An overwhelming part of the h2g2 researchers speak English as one of their native languages, and most other researchers speak (or rather write) a more than decent English. So it is obvious that everybody who want their postings to be understood by the community will use the English language (and let's stop making differences between the UK, US or Aussie varieties). Conversations mean communication. Esp. online communication is a living and breathing thing. It uses slang words, common abbreviations, smileys, etc. ...

The Edited, so-to-say "official" Guide is a different pair of shoes: Here we have strict rules and regulations, like British English only, consistent formatting and quoting, all those things that the Subeditors have an eye on. That's absolutely ok for me.

My main goal is not to allow all languages to be used freely in the Guide, but to allow all languages to be picked as a topic for the Guide. That will never work without some use of other languages. I remember a very fine article about common mistranslations of English and German phrases. I still think that the Guide is (among other things) meant to be a *Guide*, i.e. a helping tool for people who want to go to other countries. An integral part of any guide book that I have seen so far is a phrase book.

This is a situation that may not easily be understood by native English speakers. They never have experienced anything different than to be able to use their native tongue in most parts of the world. For other nationalities, that's totally different. We have had to learn English as a second language in order to be able to communicate with people from all over the world. That's why we have a very special and even intimate relationship to our native languages. Maybe this is a rather defiant attitude. But please try to see the situation with our eyes: Wouldn't you be tempted to say "How dare you telling me that *YOUR* language is the only one to be used just because it's spoken by more poeple than mine?"

I am absolutely convinced that everybody, even the BBC, would benefit from a variegated mix of languages present in the Guide, with the common language (English) at the front.

Jeremy

Oh, I'm sorry, Calamity. When you asked (twice) for "proof, please" I foolishly assumed that you wanted proof. Had I realised that you wanted everyone to ignore you and stick to the subject, I'd have been delighted to comply.

-X

I don't think there is any suggestion that the *whole* of h2g2 should be available in *all* the languages of the world!

What Jeremy and others (myself included) think *would* be possible, is to provide the possibility of *some* foreign language threads being made available.

As i understand it, the PTB do not agree that such a thread could be reliably self-regulated through a system of volunteer reactive-moderation.

I *do* think it could be workable, but it has been said that such proposals have met with no success in the past.

I quite understand that enormous resources (*hard cash!*) would be required to monitor all the threads on h2g2 for dodgy foreign-language postings. I'd hardly expect that kind of service.

I'd be interested to hear the exact reason why some kind of trial period of volunteer reactive-moderation in a specific thread has been ruled out, though.

Having said all that, it seems that if such a thread *did* exist for the French language... there would not be much demand for it!

seeya
spiff

*not expecting free miracles from h2g2 staff*

Spiff and Jeremy have put it far better than I could ever hope to do.

It boils down, in my opinion, and after reading all this, to two core peeves:

1. It is the forbidding of something that is causing the trouble. Many of us may never need or want to write anything in another language, but the restriction on our freedom of expression still seems to be taking it a bit far.

2. As pointed out above, the inclusion of foreign languages (in the house rules re URLs )with unsavoury things such as politically undesirable or pornographic material also leaves a bad taste, regardless of how it is intended to sound. As Titania pointed out, foreign languages seem to be considered the equivalent of swearing.

Well, I've heard that talking Danish *is* the equivalent of swearing.

Jeremy, thanks for taking things back on track! I'm with you

And I'd still like The Official Word on your viewpoints - as I did ask a bit back in this.