h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hello all, I've been in three threads lately that deal with war, americans, evil, terrorism, etc, and I want to start a new thread for responsible people who have some ideas about what the best solution for the situation is.

We've heard plenty of complaints, about the US and about other countries, so please let's try to be constructive and try to educate each other.

Here's my question: What should the US do in light of the terrorist attacks of September 11th? Do you think bin laden should be brought into custody or not? What steps do you believe should be taken to bring the purpetrators to justice, if it's not bin laden?

Now I think it's obvious that bin Laden was responsible. And I wrote the first posting before we started action against the taliban. Still no suggestions...

Question: Does anyone really believe that we can change anything without violence? It seems to be the only thing ossama understands. I really don't think we are going to be able to talk bin Laden out of hating Americans. What do you think?

Ok so here is my idea, borrowed in part from Loony sad to say, and quoted directly:

But I do agree with making the city of Jeruselem an international city, governed by the UN. I think that is a fascinating concept, so much would change because of it. The UN would have a homesoil for the first time. Think about that and what it means for a second. It would make the UN have a decidedly religious slant if they weren't careful. Wouldn't that be strange. All eyes would turn to Jeruselem for global leadership. They would have an economy of sorts for the first time. Fascinating as I said. Perhaps the UN is the wrong group to go there and govern. Maybe a UN type organization then. Representatives from many different governments maybe.

What about the people that live in Jeruselem already? I wonder what they would become? Just thinking out loud here. But on the flip, at least now each would have equal rights to the "holy" lands as much as the other. Myself, the concept of owning something that I thought was "holy" seems kind of foolish. I don't think that the Israelites/Palestinians/Syrians/Iraqis/Iranians etc etc would be excited about the idea either. But what I like about it is that each is called on to sacrifice that which they hold most dear, the cause of so many wars and death, not to one gov't, but to each other and the rest of the world.

I'll be back to tell you what I think America should be doing about Osama. Duty or should I say dooody calls.

Back to what I think that America should be doing now....

I posted this earlier on my homespace and was moderated on ground of it being to offensive to some. I'll try and edit it a little bit here, and see how it goes. I've said some things that may seem offensive before, but hey glutton for punishment.

In any event I think the best way to go about this would have been completly covert. No bombing of Afghanistan. No ground war. Nothing like that. Just a quiet sneak/peak/snatch/exfiltrate. Suddenly the leaders of Al quiada (mis spelling, probably) appear on planes bound for the U.S. or hey, just about any government willing to do a fair trial, followed by execution. No explanation of how they got there, just them on planes, and then an arrest by the police. Preferably NYPD, I think that would be poetic justice.

Why execution? I think that the evidence is there, else I don't think that Bush would commit us to War. Then I think that for the crimes(s) plural, that he has commited on our soil, a life for a life is due. Payment is PAST due. But there is no reason that he shouldn't be exposed to the world, as to the how, the why, and with what assets he and his compatriats (don't forget them, they are just as dangerous as he) did this to us.

That being said, I think that we could use either one of several groups. SAS comes first to mind. These guys are considered to be the best anti-terrorism group in the world. Their training is more difficult than many I can think of off the top of my head. They've had the practice (if you'll excuse me for the offhand reference to Ireland, no disrespect meant), they've got the training, and they've got our respect in the American military. And last because it wouldn't be an American team. You cannot deny the political benefits of that.

If not the SAS than definitely the SEAL teams. Six comes to mind. They've also got the training, and the will. They just don't have as much practice (that I know of, doesn't mean that they don't). My confidence in them is un paralleled. They are the best, in my opinion, we have to offer.

Next, the un-official Delta would work out nicely.

Maybe all these assets in concert would be better.

But in the end, I think that a quick nab would be better, than this bombing campaign.

Course, we have to find them first right?

Well Pilgram. Let's go down there and kill the men, rape the women and steal the sheep. And for God's sake, get it right this time.

...

Actually, I think we're doing the right thing now. Carrot and stick. Punish the Taliban, give the Afghan people some carrot. Then killor capture bin Laden and the leaders of Al-Quida.

Then, we force all of them to tell us how to actually spell their names, because no one seems to be doing it consistantly.

Yeah, because that is what I said we should do. Rape women, kill sheep, and kill men.

good christ!

Two bit,

I would have to agree with you. So far so good i would have thought.

The tricky bit will be after you are (presumably) successful in Afganistan.

One would have thought a good hard look at foreign policy would be a good start. What is it that is p**sing people off, esp. arabs and are you getting any benefit out of it.

as an example: American troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. This p**ses a lot of people off because it is the holy land, contains Mecca etc. Do they really need to be there. Do the benefits outweigh the negatives. If not, put the troops elsewhere or bring them home. If yes, then at least you have assessed the situation and are prepared to deal with the consequences of the decision.

Of course a massive effort to crack down on the sale of military hardware would be nice, but lets face it, this is never going to happen.

I think the after the war stuff is critical. We need closer friendlier relations with these nations. We need to show respect for their way of life in some way but not boss them around.

We need to help them economically. Muslims have historically been savvy businessmen. We need to encourage capitalism and economic growth throughout the region. That will build a middle class. The middle class has always been the force that brings down despots.

I'm about ready to bring the troops out of Saudi. We went there to defend them and Kuwait. If they don't want to help us when we need it, screw them. We can move our forces into Kuwait. Heck, maybe Iraq.

I would have thought Kuwait would be glad to have you. I presume this would remove the 'infidels in the holy land' gripe from the equation, although this depends on what the holy land is defined as i suppose.

Once the Taliban falls, something will need to be done to stabilise the region. I have heard suggestions of something similar to the what the UN has done in East Timor. Leaving a power vacuum will probably come back to haunt us all down the track. I realise this is not a US problem but you may need to leave troops / peacekeepers there for a while as part of an international force.

You're right, a power vacuum would bring about more of the same.

I think what we need to do is look at our successful examples of nation building, Germany and Japan, and see how we can apply what we did there to an Islamic culture.

Maybe if we could stablize the region a bit, we coujld build the oil pipeline that they were going to build to the Caspian Sea, and put it through Pakistan and Afghanistan. That would provide them with a source of income without having to dpeend so much on handouts.

I shudder to think at what this is going to cost. I was really looking forward to apying down the federal debt and getting more tax relief.

The power vacuum will be dangerous I agree.

I think leaving our troops over there though would only invite more criticism. More reason for some fundamentalist group to step up into Usama (Osama, I've seen it both ways) shoes. Better it was an international force with a token American involvement.


What about the idea for Jerusalem? Nobody really commented on that. Big deal if you didn't like my covert idea, it is really to late to do a program like that now anyway.

I think it's an interesting idea. I think I'd have it as a free city under a UN trusteeship with Peacekeepers. Maybe you could get some Buddists or Hindus to come in and keep the peace.

Yeah, I mean that is exactly the type of thing that just *might* work. Totally uninterested parties. No *real* monetary gain is in it for them. Just a little prestige. Jeruselem doesn't mean anything to them really.

How about Japanese troops. They run a real tight ship in their country. They've been very peaceful over the last 50 years. They've forever foresworn attacking anyone. Maybe a Brigade of very professional Military Police would be just what the doctor ordered.

You could have a town council, that would be advisory at first made up of equal parts Christians, Jews and Muslims. Give them a generation to grow out of their hatred, and start giving the city more and more independence.

I hold the UN in very low esteem, but this might just be the place for them to do something.

I like the idea a lot, however getting the Israelies, Palestinians etc to agree on it is a whole different ballgame. Even if the govts agreed, you can bet there would be fanatics on both sides causing all sorts of trouble.

Well the whole situation is going to take a generation at least to really settle down. Hate like that doesn't stop with a signed truce. It requires a generation of kids growing up and being educated not to hate. Eventually, the parents will calm down because thier opinions will become unpopular.

Look at how long it took (is taking) us to deal with race relations in America. And we're a tolerant country.

i agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately it only takes a few idiots to bomb a mosque/ church / sacred site specifically with the intention of stirring up trouble for the whole hose of cards to come tumbling down at the moment.

Re race relations, there isn't a nation in the world that doesn't have some sort of problem along those lines, whether it be race, original inhabitants, immigration, religion etc. Rather depressing thought

"It requires a generation of kids growing up and being educated not to hate. "

This brings up a very intersting point. How are we going to help educate the people of Afghanistan, in particular. Or, how are Afghans going to educate their children. Right now, children are taken away from their mothers at a very young age to be taught in muslim schools of an extreme nature, where they are taught to think women are completely useless and that the west is evil, among other things. They aren't taught the things like math, geography, etc in their schools. And the kids who do go to school are ALL male. Females are not allowed to go to the doctor, much less go to school.

One of the many things that bother me about this whole situation is that boys are taken from their mothers at a very young age and then taught to hate women. They are never shown a woman's love. What is this doing to their psyche? I think this is going to breed a new generation of militants who do not realize the power of love and the value of life.

Another thing that should be brought up is the link between education and violence. Statistics have shown that virtually all violent crimes are performed by very uneducated people. This is a problem we have in America with the poor who have no education and commit hate crimes, robbery, and have illegitimate children. This breeds more crime since again, most violent crime is committed by illegitimate children! This is a problem we have been trying to rememdy in the black community for years. And it's working. The NAACP and other groups have recognized the need for education. Colin Powell has said time and time again that in order for the black community to progress and to get "out of the slums", education is the key. The same goes for Afghanistan. The problem? How in the world is anyone going to educate the Afghan children when the adults are not educated? There is no economy and no money to pay teachers (besides the ones who teach the Koran). One solution is that Americans and other members of the coalition go into Afghanistan after the war, and teach their children. However, what are muslims going to say about westerners teaching their children? I think the term "brainwashing" would come up over and over, even though this may not be the case.

i saw something similar written about Pakistan this week. Basically the state is bankrupt meaning no money for schools, so the only schools available to many people are those run by muslim fundamentalists

I came up with that sort of idea for Jerusalem as well. Maybe we can combine that with "Palestine is this area, Israel is this area", "Sorry, Israel, pick another capital city", and "Until you stop killing each other no one's allowed in." That would be interesting. Kick everyone out of the city and don't allow anyone in for several generations.

Also, I think a lot of people would be willing to turn a blind eye to the middle east if it wasn't for the oil. People have been killing each other over trivial things for years, it ain't going to change any time soon. And religion is probably the most trivial thing you can fight over. Well, maybe sports and music as well.

Just for the record, I suppose I should say that the US should negotiate with the Taliban, and should have done so before bombing. Sure, they're extremists, but beggars can't be choosers, and they're at least more civilised than the Northern Alliance, by all accounts.

I'm suspicious of the idea of trying any nation-building in Afghanistan, particularly if they're going to try representative democracy. Strikes me that all you're likely to achieve is a nation with one unified and democratic set of fundamentalists who hate the West, rather than a variety of internally warring fundamentalists who hate the West.

Israel and Palestine... my personal sympathies have always lain with the Palestinians. The first stage would be for the politicians to start talking about these suspected terrorists - if they won't be handed over to Israel, why can't we find a relatively neutral country to try them in? The chance of them getting a fair trial in Israel is negligible...